Party Alignment Preferences.

I am not going to lie............ D+D and TOEE is a good party biased game. That is the way it is. My question is this: Does having an EVIL party be as equally rewarding? I mean, you can butcher up all of hommlet (I suppose the quests can work, but if you are evil, especially CE, you could care less except what people have in their pockets) so there are quests but I don't really see them being effective for evil parties. You can befriend Lareth and Rannos/Gremag, but at the end, you are supposed to fight for the orb or its use. Being evil means also greedy for power, so I see that end of it, but Scather, Fragarach and the "Holy" items don't work for an Evil party, except if you make them. My point is this: IS it possibly, in humble parlance, to ask if anyone can make a mod where an evil party is not only encouraged but favored? You not only destroy Fragarach, but must steal/pillage/rape Hommlet to find a hidden Evil sword to help overcome good (ie: Prince Thrommel is set loose after you and you must get this sword to oppose him?). I am truly sorry I do not have the capacity for this myself, but I offer this as an open question.

My point being: with all the modding available, the extra side quests are excellent and facinating to find, and challenging to boot, but for person who likes evil parties (I find the bias to be good all the time to be somewhat boring) can there be a way to make a mod that exploits this aspect rather than the status quo. I can see a whole line of plot where Thrommel is freed by a good, competing party and is out for revenge (on me) and I eventually get the help from Hedrack on evil items to destroy this good party, Thrommel and possibly even larger fish. I mean, the temple dungeon cannot change much good or evil aligned, but the subplots I am thinking of allow for both good and evil; IE: if there is Scather and Fragarach, how about their opposite that can be found/fought for/used on the rank goodness in Hommlet. Mother Screng is now just target practice rather than someone useful. I find that the modding itself is a little biased to a good party, and there is some benefit to being evil (from the work now Lareth is interesting) but if a purely evil mod could be made to exploit all of the evil traits I think it would be most rewarding. At least, far more so than what Troika had in mind for evil parties when the game was originally made. I must point out that with all the added side quests, you must realize that in true role playing fashion only good parties would go out of their way to help others. An evil party would do it only for pay, magic or "other considerations". A mod that exploits this explicitly would ensure that these options are there, encouraged or allowed upon deciding to be selfish and removing the questing person and taking their goods. Case in point:

You go throughout Hommlet to get Meleny to marry you to eventually get a radiant longsword (as a Good party). This assumes the sword is in the house (on the mantle, actually). So, is it not logical that an evil party would consider the offer, be greedy and kill everyone and take the sword from the mantle to destroy/sell for their own gains. I think that as it stands, it is not possible to barter, take or even locate the sword in the house unless you complete the quest. So what---- is it invisible until called for or appear out of thin air? I think you get my point. For an evil party there is no incentive in any event. You may get Meleny in the end, but the Holy sword is unusable for an evil party, so how about another option for an evil specific ending that involves the sword for sale, destruction or barter.

I have no issue giving suggestions or thoughts, but I only lack the ability to do it myself. I am only humbly suggesting that if any further mods are made by those who can and do do it, I ask only to consider this as an option in the future.

Thoughts are welcome, of course.

 

Okay, so let us have this one, possible scenario.

An evil party comes to Hommlet for wealth and greed. As they go along, they meet Lareth, Rannos and Gremag and find that this cooperation is profitable. Of course, this means killing a few good men and thus raises the ire of the Hommlet folk, who are mostly good people. As they decide to counter your actions, you grow in power, and it is obvious that the local town cannot repulse your evil. Word is sent out to the King about you and a good party is dispatched to hunt you down and kill you.

In a brief random encounter, they find you, and if they are starting to lose they retreat by some way; a Teleport spell, fleeing retreat or other means. They realize you are thoroughly rotten and you are too strong to counter without REAL help. They are now on a quest to free Thrommel to help kill you and this means you could very well encounter them in the dungeon on THEIR quest. You could free the Elven princess, or kill her outright, but somehow the word gets to the high elves of Celene, and instead of the elven princess giving out the unicorn ring, that very party you encounter as a CG party is now out to kill YOU, evil ones. This now begins to make random encounters very dangerous for the evil party, as it should be, if they are hell bent on evil as the alignment needs.

Of course, the encounter means the good party will have to be strong, use all available magic and thus if the evil party wins, there will be good loot to have (an evil party would not let an elf princess go without some compensation and I doubt a suit of elven chain would be freely given to an evil party, so how else are you to get the suit).

Later on, Thrommel arrives with his cohorts and the battle ensues, much like current mods where the good party allows Gremag and Rannos to live and you meet them in the house in Nulb (I personally love this encounter because if you are not ready for it you will always lose; they are tough, don't take them lightly). In similar way, the evil party would encounter Thrommel and his party (the good party after you) and now it is up to you. Do you win or not.

Of course, this does not even take into consideration that the evil ones have not double crossed anyone at this point; anyone from the elemental factions could be REALLY pissed and be after you as well. I hope you develop eyes in the back of the head. So instead of defeating Zuggmoty you are trying to make the temple stronger, and possibly, you win. Hommlet dies and Nulb becomes a new force. Or at the very end, if you dispatch all adversaries, there is a final battle with the forces of Furondy avenging Thrommel and this would be VERY tough. It could be a force of 10 or so of highest ability (IE: they would be your characters had you been good) and they will stop at nothing to kill you.

Correlated to all of the above, the reverse could work as well. A mod for an evil party could work in reverse; that is , you are good and not only do you do all the quests but there is an evil party to deal with just as you would have to deal with a good party if you are evil. They grow as you do and the first encounter or two is only to make sure you know that you are being kept informed on. But in later levels, it is about pure destruction, of good or evil, depending on your alignment. The temple does not change much, most of the action could be in random encounters or in Hommlet, but I found as a lifelong D+D'er that the BEST adversaries were other parties of not the same ethos as you. Monsters are easy to figure out, but an opposing party can always have tricks up its sleeves for you, and you may not always come out on top. I know, my first encounter with Rannos and Gremag in the house did NOT go well. It was very exciting.

I figure that such a plot should be easy to impliment. Parties are easy to create and provide the best treasure, good or evil, and with the current mods by Liv to ensure they are not easy in any event, watch out. With my scenario, and evil party could find themselves being hunted from all sides, not just one, and unless they are careful, they could find themselves greatly outnumbered by many strong adversaries. Thrommel could find that Lareth is a brief friend to help counter this renegade, evil threat. Or, maybe Lareth is your friend who has grown into a powerful evil cleric whom is now your ally in getting rid of Thrommel and Hommlet, making full use of his book you find in the Moathouse. Maybe his dreams really do come alive through your evil party. But nothing is certain unless people are paid off, eliminated or enslaved.

Of course, others are going to see it differently, but at least this allows for added friction to a storyline that is a little old that cannot change. If only it was as easy as buying a module.

 

Story lines...or really the lack thereof...have always been a major complaint of many here at this forum. From time to time, persons lament the one sided-ness of this game, and plea for added dimension to what has been created for this game. Invariably, everyone agrees that more is needed. Almost as frequently, it is mentioned that evil needs more work than good because it is especially limited. Most of us agree as well that this game does not allow for the expansion of any plot - be it good or evil - due mainly to the fact that this game is not possessed of the one thing that makes all this possible. A real DM. This is not to say that it doesn't come as close as possible to table-top D&D. My experience is that there is nothing closer...just that little can be done about it except modding. This is as close as this game can come to the "fleshing out" a real DM would give to the interaction PC's have on the game as it unfolds during play. We each contribute according to our abilities, so find something you can help with and join in the fun. I myself cannot mod; so I offer a Greyhawk angle & ideas on many of the things suggested. And I also try to keep things moving along. Evil has it's place, and you're not alone in your desire to see things "fleshed out".

 

I am aware of this and thank every one who contributes. I have countless years of D+D knowledge and only wish to see more plot development with evil parties. From my original thread you should see that everything I suggest is already present, in some form. It only (bad pun, but seriously) takes some stringing together to make it work. An evil party could find Thrommel out to get them, and considering his prowess, this in itself is frightening, but therein is the challenge. I saw a great created party for Rannos and Gremag, so creating a good (or evil) one that also rises in power should be easy.

 

Thanks for the thought. I wonder if Troika had any REAL D+D'ers on staff who understood D+D from the start. I have always loved the fact that D+D, like life, is a double edged sword. Don't think that being good and successful is going to go unnoticed by evil forces, and vice versa. All I suggest is that if there is going to be any further modding all I ask is to consider this and make the game more fun (interesting) to play a successful, thoroughly evil party as the alignment dictates. The original platform is not so supporting for evil intentions and having to account for your actions with a powerful, good party is extremely tempting and rewarding.

 

Most people who play the game normally play a good or neutral aligned party. Apparently, that is where focus was placed in the original design of the computer version of the game.

 

I understand this. But not all people seek out the good in life. Some, like I, enjoy the evil personna that D+D offers as I am a good person in my own life. I like the fact I can play something I would never do in my own life, and if that is escapist then so be it. That is what fantasy is all about. IF you were an evil person in real life, do you not think you would love to find out how the other half lived?

 

I can see this, but my humble suggestions are only to bring about a suggestion that adding simple mods that add a party to oppose the evil that grows could be very easily done and provide a real threat to the party (or challenge, depending). An evil party would not undertake most quests out of selfish reasons, and knowing this, I suggest one where their evil is noticed and acted upon by higher powers to eliminate them. If played properly it may not go well..................