Circle of Eight Modpack 5.9.x/5.9.xNC General Commentary & Discussion Thread

[cezmail]

Originally Posted by florian1

Not sure if this is a known bug, but I just fought a randomly encountered groaning spirit who got itself over 512 million temporary hit points! The party kept banging away at it until they did over 400 damage before I gave up.

I believe you need a magic weapon or use magic spells to do real damage against groaning spirits. An alternative is to have your healers use their cure spells.

[General Ghoul]

Originally Posted by cezmail

I believe you need a magic weapon or use magic spells to do real damage against groaning spirits. An alternative is to have your healers use their cure spells.

You're gonna need a lot of cure spells for that one!

[florian1]

Elmo was with me with his magic battle axe, and all of his hits came off the temporary hp same as everyone's hits, as did damage from spiritual weapons and any spells that overcame spell resistance. On another note, the DR for non-magical weapons did not apply against the temp hp, although DR was in effect before that.

[gazra_1971]

I'm afraid that I'm going to say that there have always been 13 rats in the first level of the moathouse. Goes all the way back to vanilla. They come out in 3s with the last one being by itself.

mmonagle, thanks for the heads up. Yeah, those Dire Rat corpses were piled up all around their spawning point.

In 5.9.1 NC, at Emridy Meadows, the combat with the hill giant is now doable with a party that has just come from clearing out the moathouse now that the brown bear is not hostile. I prefer it that way - it balances out game difficulty in proportion to party level at the time that the party should be clearing out Emridy Meadows.

One thing that I believe is still severely unbalanced in terms of game difficulty is the assassin who attacks your party on a random map encounter after you have sold one of Lareth's items to Rannos Davl or Gremag. It's possible to have the assassin attack a party of only level 3 characters. At that character level, the assassin pretty much kills a character each round while barely getting damaged himself. The only way that I can think of a party of level 3 characters being able to kill the assassin is either by using Improved Trip or casting the spells Tasha's Hideous Laughter or Hold Person. Does anybody else have any other suggestions for how to kill the assassin with only level 3 characters or what minimum level characters you attempt to take the assassin on with?

While playing 5.9.1 NC, I have not experienced any crashes to desktop yet! However, I just encountered a really annoying bug that I also experienced on a few occasions while playing 5.8.1 NC. I don't know if this bug occurs because I have switched between running applications (open windows) (by pressing Alt Tab) before going back to playing this computer game, but I sometimes encounter a bug where one or more (sometimes all) of my PCs are unable to move any more during a particular round or for the rest of a particular combat (while they have no afflictions that prevent them from moving such as being stuck in a web, or being encumbered, or having an attribute reduced to 0). My PCs can still cast spells and attack targets within reach, but they cannot move any distance. All of my PCs in the screenshot below cannot move any more in that particular combat. The image below shows a stuck PC that still has a full-round action left for his turn (as can clearly be seen with the icon at the top left of the screen) but he cannot move at all (the area that the enemy hill giant threatens is being shown which verifies that the Alt key is being held down, yet the PC cannot move towards where the mouse pointer is positioned when he should be able to). Has anybody else experienced this bug? Does anybody have any ideas as to how to overcome this bug?

[Ranth]

About the assassin, there are two things I do. When I know the fight is coming, I move my wizard from the last slot to the middle. He always appears next to the person in the last slot. Therefore, he does not kill my wizard right away if they try to move.

Other tactics include trying to get a web or entangle spell off. This will allow your fighters to hit him as he tried to break free and go for your wizard. It is a tough fight, but this game is made for tough fights.

For the problem with people not moving, I would get that if I loaded a saved game with a lot of buffs on a character. I found it happened a lot when I did a solo cleric run, I would save before fights with buffs off. The only way to move on reload was to sneak, and then it was fine.

[florian1]

Just to clarify regarding the groaning spirit, for the first few rounds, there were no temp hp shown for the groaning spirit. All non-magical damage was affected by the DR. At some point the groaning spirit gained 514 MILLION(!) + temporary hp. After that, there was no damage reduction affect, and ALL damage came off of the temp hp. After watching it drop by 400, I figured it really was 514 million, and gave up.

[GuardianAngel82]

The lockpick being interrupted is interesting. The speed change in the smith's arm may give us a strong clue as to the cause of the game's interrupting the execution of commands.

[mmonagle]

I will add that I experienced a jerkstop session recently. However, it was not with any of the village/town signposts in play. I used the code that SA put up to make the earth temple go reactive. I fought everything that engaged (that I could see in the top of the screen that shows you the initiative order) except for one earth elemental. It had not popped up from the surface to engage and ended up never doing so. Thus when I had finished off everything else I was out of its range and combat ended.

However, I then experienced the worst jerkstop I have ever encountered. I ended up getting my character who was closest to one of the earth temple exits around to the stairs that leads down to the second level. It probably took @ 10 minutes to do it though due to the jerkstopping. Once they were down the stairs, the jerkstop ended. I saved and went back upstairs and even went back into the temple and the jerkstop never returned.

I didn't mention it sooner since I used the reactive earth temple hack. However, if you are trying to track down jerkstop causes, I thought it might help to know that it doesn't appear to always stem from signposts.

[mmonagle]

On a different note, gazra_1971 I'm curious about facing the assassin at just the 3rd level. To trigger his attack, you have had to made it to Lareth. By the time, I finish Lareth off, and the moathouse with him, I'm at level 5. I've done all the quests in Hommlet that I can, I've cleared out Deklo Grove, Welkwood Bog, and Emridy Meadows. Plus the moathouse is truly cleared. Is there anything that you are doing differently?

I simply ask because I realize that it is possible to skip parts or an entire area but doing this would affect the experience you have earned. I would also believe that you have obtained Lareth's diary and so you could go to Nulb at just 3rd level as well. You could even then talk to Otis from there to get the temple's location and go there at just the 3rd level. I don't think these areas were designed for 3rd level play either.

I'm just trying to say that I believe that the assassin's attack is designed for a party at higher levels. It is a tough fight but by following along the path of the game design, you ought to be tough enough to take him. Perhaps you have a different experience though. That's why I'm asking how you got the attack triggered at such a low level.

[gazra_1971]

Sorry guys, I forgot that characters gain experience at different rates depending on how many characters are in your party.

As you can see from my screenshot above, I'm playing the game with a party of 7 PCs. mmonagle, I'm guessing that you play the game with a party of less characters. I got Lareth's diary while my PCs were all level 3. My level 3 rogue tried to unlock Lareth's diary, but I received a message like "Maybe you should give the book to somebody who actually knows what they're doing". That really pissed my rogue off!

The following is my PCs' level progression throughout the game:
Welkwood Bog: level 2 PCs
the Moathouse: level 3 PCs
Emridy Meadows: level 4 PCs
Hickory Branch: level 5 PCs
My party of 7 PCs were all level 9 when I stopped playing on the Temple level 2 in 5.8.1 NC.

Jaroo revealed Nulb on my world map (because I'm playing a True Neutral party alignment) while my PCs were all level 3, so yes, my party of level 3 PCs could have gone to the Temple of Elemental Evil if I had travelled to Nulb and spoken with Otis while my PCs were still level 3.

I'm not cheating or skipping any parts of the game (except for all of the boring quests in Hommlet).

[Necroticpus]

Originally Posted by GuardianAngel82

The lockpick being interrupted is interesting. The speed change in the smith's arm may give us a strong clue as to the cause of the game's interrupting the execution of commands.

Sweet! Do I win anything? I like to help. With anything in life, sometimes you can be too close to the issue and need an unwashed and unlettered mendicant to see things for what they are.

[mmonagle]

Originally Posted by gazra_1971

Sorry guys, I forgot that characters gain experience at different rates depending on how many characters are in your party.

Good point. I usually play with a party of 5. 7 would definitely throw that off. I'm not sure how the modders can correct for a larger party though.

[GuardianAngel82]

Originally Posted by Necroticpus

Sweet! Do I win anything? I like to help. With anything in life, sometimes you can be too close to the issue and need an unwashed and unlettered mendicant to see things for what they are.

Instead of doing your victory over your righteous win, why don't you celebrate with a bath? You can afford city water now you working fool! (Congrats!)

Honestly, I hope this thing isn't spreading somehow.

[chano]

I got into a fight with Senchock and during the fight my Fighter was first dominated by senchock and then by my wizard to counter it, he was also webbed.
I won the fight and went back to rest, the dominate spells disappeared but the webspell seem to be permanent.

Question is how do i remove it?

I have tried, dispel, greater dispel, break enchantment, remove curse and even tried another webspell.
My wizard also has a dismiss spell option that will not disappear.

[General Ghoul]

Originally Posted by gazra_1971

mmonagle, thanks for the heads up. Yeah, those rat carcasses were piled up all around their spawn point.

In 5.9.1 NC, at Emridy Meadows, the combat with the hill giant is now doable with a party of level 4 characters now that the brown bear is non-hostile. I prefer it that way - it balances out game difficulty in proportion to party level at the time that the party should be clearing out Emridy Meadows.

One thing that I believe is still severely unbalanced in terms of game difficulty is the assassin who attacks your party on a random map encounter after you have sold one of Lareth's possessions to Rannos Davl or Gremag. It's possible to have the assassin attack a party of only level 3 characters. At that character level, the assassin pretty much kills a character each round while barely getting damaged himself. The only way that I can think of a party of level 3 characters being able to kill the assassin is either by using Improved Trip or casting the spells Tasha's Hideous Laughter or Hold Person. Does anybody else have any other suggestions for how to kill the assassin with only level 3 characters or what minimum level characters you attempt to take the assassin on with?

I have regularly taken out the giant and the bear at 1st or 2nd level, big XP there! The trick is you need some crowd control spells, specifically entangle, grease and web. There more you use, the better. Buy the scrolls if you don't have the spells, throw an entangle from range, use a rogue or ranger to sneak in to get a good look at the area. Then follow up with web and/or grease. Follow this with a few summoning spells behind them, but out of reach, remember the giant has a big reach. Keep your party far back and plink away with missile weapons and spells. If you have a druid for the entangle, have him charm the bear! The giant will fight to get free of the spells, then go after the closest enemy-the summons. Now he kills on one hit so you may need to replenish every few rounds, but even with 4 1st level characters, who have done a few Fedex quests and got a little cash, can buy 3-4 scrolls needed for the fight, to suppliment their own spells. Now, do make sure everyone has a missile weapon and PLENTY of ammo, it does take awhile to knock him down, unles the bear is on your side.


As far as the assassin goes, THL is the way to go, especially if you have a bard, or hold person from a cleric. Tripping does work well, enlarge a high STR character and go for it.

[Ank]

@chano this should solve the problem for you (it definitely worked for me) :
http://www.co8.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1856 ... #9 is what yr looking for (make sure u wait until yr unit gets killed and revived)

[chano]

Originally Posted by Ank

@chano this should solve the problem for you (it definitely worked for me) :
http://www.co8.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1856 ... #9 is what yr looking for (make sure u wait until yr unit gets killed and revived)

Thanks, i just tried that,,,,, well, he killed my fighter, was that supposed to happen ?
Tried to raise him and the game froze during the dialog,, not good


Tried it twice now, same result, he kills the character, and then the dialog freeze and i need to kill the game.

[chano]

Kelno is not able to take party to the greater temple, dialog is broken, just says 1. 2. 3.

This happen in 5.9 aswell, but i forgot to mention it.

[gazra_1971]

I have regularly taken out the giant and the bear at 1st or 2nd level

General Ghoul, that is extremely impressive! I'd never be able to do that. But then, I prefer concentrating on melee combat - that's just the way that I prefer to play D&D. I couldn't do that with the assassin (that comes after you when you sell one of Lareth's items to Rannos Davl or Gremag) though. When my party of 7 level 4 PCs fought the assassin, my cleric won initiative, cast Hold Person, and the assassin just failed his save by 1 or 2, allowing my fighters to Coup de Grace him to death in the first round of combat. I withdraw my complaint about the assassin being too difficult. If anything, he could do with some allies to make the combat sporting. In hindsight, my party could have fought him when they were only level 3.

As far as the assassin goes, THL is the way to go

General Ghoul, what is THL an acronym for?

On the moathouse dungeon level, in the hallway outside Lareth's room, there is an anomaly. If you hold down the Tab key, then a light blue dot appears approximately in the middle of the hallway (see screenshot below). What is that blue dot?

[GuardianAngel82]

That blue dot is also in tower behind the Temple and in other places. It's vanilla.

[Oakheart]

I had the three criminals from the VB quests under the influence of DOMINATE PERSON spells, therefore in the party, -AND- unconscious from FF non-lethal damage... and they STILL run away if you try to bring them in alive to the jail.... crafty rogues indeed. I tried talking to them and others near them, so far I have not found a way to avoid killing them and still complete the quest.

[The Royal Canadian]

Hi Gazra
Hopefully I can answer some of your questions.

Originally Posted by gazra_1971

[SNIP]

General Ghoul, what is THL an acronym for?
Tasha's Hideous Laughter (2nd Level Wizard/Sorceror 1st Level Bard Spell )

On the moathouse dungeon level, in the hallway outside Lareth's room, there is an anomaly. If you hold down the Tab key, then a light blue dot appears approximately in the middle of the hallway (see screenshot below). What is that blue dot?
I assume you see this after the battle. It's a well known bug in the looting system that goes all the way back to vanilla. Do NOT "loot" that item or you could have some difficulties with PC / NPC inventory control (I freely admit I don't remember what the problem actually is).

The Royal Canadian

[cezmail]

Originally Posted by Oakheart

I had the three criminals from the VB quests under the influence of DOMINATE PERSON spells, therefore in the party, -AND- unconscious from FF non-lethal damage... and they STILL run away if you try to bring them in alive to the jail.... crafty rogues indeed. I tried talking to them and others near them, so far I have not found a way to avoid killing them and still complete the quest.

I do not think think there is a successful way to complete that quest without killing them. You either let them escape and botch the missions or kill them off. The most challenging fight is to have all three together before they turn on you. I think it is scripted that they will never be brought into the jail alive.

Though I wonder if use Friendly Fire to kill them, but do not delete them from the group, if they will still turn into phantoms and get away. I will have to give that a try on my next play through.

[Gaear]

I find it a bit ironic that after watching players routinely murder innocent NPCs just because they look like they might be carrying something neat or because they're bored (a little-known caveat in the Paladin code of conduct booklet must be that it's okay to murder innocents if you're bored), suddenly everybody is determined to go by the book with these admitted and unrepentant killers and thugs and bring them in for the justice system to handle.

[Ranth]

I want my cake and to eat it too. And I want to see what the guy gives me. It might be better than what is on the guys.

Note, I had to kill the guys. They attacked me.

[GuardianAngel82]

Shot in the back of the head while handcuffed and kneeling while trying to escape or resisting arrest.

[cezmail]

Originally Posted by Gaear

I find it a bit ironic that after watching players routinely murder innocent NPCs just because they look like they might be carrying something neat or because they're bored (a little-known caveat in the Paladin code of conduct booklet must be that it's okay to murder innocents if you're bored), suddenly everybody is determined to go by the book with these admitted and unrepentant killers and thugs and bring them in for the justice system to handle.

Is it not a given that Paladins and other Vigilantes are hypocrites and must do all that they can to prove it.

[Sitra Achara]

The Drow Matriarch summons a sword that attacks its fellows.
(If you want enemy AI to summon things, you have to rig the spell script to create a proto entry that has the same faction as the summoner)

Fight is quite tough now, BTW. Well done.

[Oakheart]

Originally Posted by Gaear

I find it a bit ironic that after watching players routinely murder innocent NPCs just because they look like they might be carrying something neat or because they're bored (a little-known caveat in the Paladin code of conduct booklet must be that it's okay to murder innocents if you're bored), suddenly everybody is determined to go by the book with these admitted and unrepentant killers and thugs and bring them in for the justice system to handle.

This is different, some other guy wants me to be a murdering bastard. When I kill people, I want it to be because -I- feel like it (I admit there was a time when I killed the Jeweler for the magic longsword... but you went and made him INNOCENT, or at least, now the good people of Hommlet seem to take exception at his killing, when they didn't in days gone by). In any case, when I play a good party.. especially when I have a Paladin, I try to not murder people... even evil bastards.

[Gaear]

Originally Posted by gazra

While playing 5.8.1 NC, Lareth prebuffed with a spell, I had to initiate dialogue with him, and I had to manually initiate combat with him once the dialogue had ended. Lareth cast the spell Shield of Faith in the first round of combat.

While playing 5.9.1 NC, Lareth never prebuffed, Lareth automatically initiated dialogue with my party, and combat then automatically started with him once the dialogue ended. Lareth cast the spell Shield of Faith in the first round of combat.

Nothing changed there from 5.8.1 to 5.9.1. Heartbeat functions don't always work for whatever reason, so you may get flukey results from time to time with prebuffing and whatnot. He's not scripted to auto-talk at all though initially, so I have no idea how that happened. What did he say?

Originally Posted by Necro

The Hero's Shield from the arena of heroes. It works as a buckler! It's the size of a large shield but you can equip it and use it and gain +7 to your AC while using 2 handed weapons! Man, the pregenerated PC, Giant, would rule using a dwarven war axe or scythe in each hand and the hero's shield equipped!

Originally Posted by TRC

Is your fighter really strong and tall ?? I have been testing the Heroes Shield with both my cleric and Elmo, and neither of them can use it with a two handed weapon. The weapons I have tested it with include Light and Heavy Crossbows, Sling, Long Spear, Guisarme, Glaive, and Ranseur.

The hero's shield proto was adapted from the existing protos for tower shields and should function identically to them.

Originally Posted by mmonagle

1) When you save a game, it also puts a little sentence in that you can see when you go to load your game. I have found that if I save a game when my party is inside the Castle of Lords in VB, it says 'This is the unknown area' for that save on the list. Please let me know if that is not clear.

I believe that's likely hardcoded.

Originally Posted by mmonagle

2) In the air node, there are 2 windwalkers NW of the starting position and 8 vapor rats SE of the starting position. These two groups of creatures are not hostile. You can go right up to them. In fact, you can attack one rat and the others will not react. You can even kill one rat at a time until they are all dead. Can this be changed? They are too easy otherwise.

The module states that the windwalkers are benign, and rats in ToEE usually are too (think Moathouse, Temple).

Originally Posted by gazra

I don't understand why the pregenerated half-orc PC named Giant is a "player-created" PC instead of being like all of the other "pregenerated" PCs. When you put a cross in the box to hide all of the pregenerated PCs during party creation, Giant is still displayed in the list of player-created PCs. Why is Giant a player-created PC instead of a pregenerated PC?

Because it was created and put there by Co8.

Originally Posted by gazra

In 5.9.1 NC, at Emridy Meadows, the combat with the hill giant is now doable with a party that has just come from clearing out the moathouse now that the brown bear is not hostile. I prefer it that way - it balances out game difficulty in proportion to party level at the time that the party should be clearing out Emridy Meadows.

The brown bear was not changed. I don't think it's ever been flagged KOS, but it shares the giant's faction, so if they are near together they should both join against you.

Originally Posted by GA82

Honestly, I hope this thing isn't spreading somehow.

Well it was brought about on Temple Level 1 by loading in Sitra's reactive earth scripts, which aren't in the modpack, so I don't guess it's spreading. By and large it still seems down, really, being as we've gotten nowhere near the complaints we used to. Still there in some form though. I wonder if it's not something as mundane as too many complex scripts running.

Originally Posted by chano

Thanks, i just tried that,,,,, well, he killed my fighter, was that supposed to happen ?
Tried to raise him and the game froze during the dialog,, not good


Tried it twice now, same result, he kills the character, and then the dialog freeze and i need to kill the game.

That's the first I've ever heard of it not working.

Originally Posted by chano

Kelno is not able to take party to the greater temple, dialog is broken, just says 1. 2. 3.

This happen in 5.9 aswell, but i forgot to mention it.

Thanks, will fix.

Originally Posted by SA

The Drow Matriarch summons a sword that attacks its fellows.
(If you want enemy AI to summon things, you have to rig the spell script to create a proto entry that has the same faction as the summoner)

Thanks ... we'll just dump that spell.


Getting closer.