hardware recommendations for ToEE

new motherboard + new memory + FSB400 single/dual modes

So far, playing ToEE on XP Pro SP2 is running just fine on the new motherboard [AN7 model of Abit motherboard with the nVidia n2 version of motherboard chipset with its drivers updated to nForce_510 version of Windows drivers] and a Radeon 9800 Pro video card [ATI Catalyst 5.7 version Display Driver and Control Panel, none of the other Catalyst stuff was installed].

I should also mention that I bought 2 new modules of 512 MB of PC3200, 184-pin DIMM DDR400 [from SAMS Club 65 US dollars, each]. I made sure the small manufacturer label glued on the PC3200 DIMMs showed both being from the same manufacturer to get the same brand of unbuffered, non-ECC PC3200.

New motherboards that are 400 MHz or greater capable FSB (Front-Side Bus) should have 3 DIMM 184-pin DDR slots. What is different when you run one of these boards is you can install the RAM to run as single channel [64-bit] or dual channel [128-bit]. (Dual channel handles more data in the same amount of time.)
* To run the memory as 64-bit in single channel mode, install two DIMMs in slots DIMM1 and DIMM2.
* To run the memory as 128-bit in dual channel mode, install two DIMMs in slots DIMM3 and DIMM2.
Note1: If you install three of the same types of DIMM to fill all three slots, it will run in dual channel mode.
Note2: If you install just one DDR RAM module, the memory will operate in 64-bit single channel mode.

Anyway, ToEE is running just fine, now. I am running a Chaotic Neutral party. I believe I have done all the quests in Hommlet, including the Desperate Housewives quest, except I did not do the one where a girl in your party pretends to date a shop owners son to improve his image and give him confidence. I also did the majority of the Nulb quests. The Moathouse is now empty and the undead and hill giant in Emridy Meadows are dead. And, at this time about half of the 1st level of the temple is completed. So far, no problems, except for the CTD when entering the Ah Fong Emporium, and ShiningTed is working to fix that issue.

 

hardware list from Abit web site for an AN7 nVidia n2 motherboard

I found this hardware compatibility report posted by ABIT for their AN7 n2 400FSB motherboard I am testing with ToEE running on XP Pro SP2.
- http://www2.abit.com.tw/test_report/AN7/

 

finalizing memory installed and used for best results

I am still playing ToEE, am in the Elemental Nodes. You have to love the Fire Node Boss. It summoned 2 herzou in the middle of my party keeping a safe distance from it, the balor, only to be paralyzed by the herzou secretion of toxins. No one might as well have been there, except for the wizard and meleny who were far enough away.

TESTA: I ran ToEE on XP with the 2 DDR memory modules in slots DIMM1 and DIMM2 for 64-bit single channel mode.
-=- ToEE ran good and the video was responsive with fluid graphics most of the time.

TESTB: I ran ToEE on XP with the same 2 DDR memory modules in slots DIMM3 and DIMM2 for 128-bit dual channel mode.
-=- ToEE ran great and the video was responsive with greater fluidness of graphics most of the time.

Notes: The game was more enjoyable with the DDR RAM in DIMM3,2 [128-bit dual channel mode]. Using slots DIMM3,2 also experienced less Elemental Node slowdowns.
* For example, TESTA would have two Node slowdowns in eight hours, whereas, TESTB would have one Node slowdown in eight hours.
** Whenever there was a video problem or glitch, I would save the game with a new name, exit ToEE, reboot, and start ToEE.

I was thinking about how it was working and how I could improve it. So, I flashed the AN7 motherboard BIOS to the latest revision that I downloaded from the Abit manufacturer website on the Internet. Flashing the motherboard BIOS helped improve the game and its video, but it was still not quite perfect. The same amount of video problems would occur over a 12-hour period, instead of over an 8-hour period.
* On an Abit AN7 motherboard, you can flash the BIOS while running inside of Windows; you just have to install the latest Windows version of Abit uGURU.

I grumbled and bought one PC3200 module of PNY Optima memory, a 1 GB DDR400 PC3200 memory module (unbuffered, non-ECC) from CompUSA, not a premium brand like Corsair or Kingston, but a quality brand. I used this one stick of DDR memory in slot DIMM3 with no other memory modules installed. Guess what? It now runs beautifully, not a single problem, slowdown or glitch, in a final 28-hour period [no sleep or breaks, except to warm an occasional bowl of soup].

Windows XP Pro with SP2 applied + DirectX 9c with ToEE and Patch1, Patch2, Co8 3.0.4, Livs 1.5.1 MOD, and ShiningTeds new voices + MOD on a
1. AMD AthlonXP 2500+ CPU and Abit AN7 nVidia n2 chipset board with the latest BIOS flash applied
2. plus one stick of 1 GB DDR400 [PC3200] memory used in slot DIMM3
3. with the latest nVidia nForce 5.10 Windows drivers downloaded and installed
4. and a Radeon 9800 Pro AGP video card using the Catalyst 5.7 Display Driver and Control Panel
all runs together just fine.

At some point, I will upgrade the CPU from a K7 AMD 2500+ to a K7 AMD 3200+ CPU just to beef it all up some more and make things in the game happen even faster than what it already is.

*****

Finally, The issue of the CTD caused by entering the Ah Fong Emporium has been resolved. Its fix will be released as a part of the future release of Co8 version 4 MOD.

No, I do not know when. Please don't ask. I am also sure Co8 does not know yet, either. Plus, I am sure, Co8 will let us know when it is time for them to let us know. Until then, we must wait.

*****

 

from scratch install of XP and install of plain ToEE used in my tests

!!! This is NOT to use with installing Toffee or Toffee Pro. !!!

*** This is ONLY to install plain ToEE out-of-the-box, patching plain ToEE through to the current MODs

*** and is also to do a from scratch install of Windows XP that will run ToEE

Do the following with reboots as prompted.

for a K7 Socket A motherboard, a Abit AN7 nVidia n2 motherboard and Windows XP

install Windows XP with the default settings
use the CD disk that came with the nVidia motherboard and let it install the nVida Windows drivers from CD
install the ATI Display Driver from the ATI CD disk that came with the Radeon video card
install the latest BIOS - flash the motherboard BIOS using Abit uGURU (in Windows, not DOS)
apply SP2 for XP
download and install the latest nVidia nForce Windows drivers
download and install DirectX 9c
download and install the ATI Catalyst 5.7 version Display Driver and Control Panel (for Radeon video cards only)
download and install the RADtools video update from Bink and Smacker (ToEE related)
download and install the Miles audio player update from Miles Sound System (ToEE related)
download and install any driver updates for any addon PCI audio cards
download and install any driver updates for any DVD Drives/Writers.
* I had to download and update the firmware for my new DVD Writer and had to install its Windows drivers, again - no driver uninstall
** CD Drives/Writers are probably okay with using the drivers from SP2 being applied
*** I did not use an addon PCI audio card

install ToEE
install Patch1
install Patch2
install Co8 Fan Fixes 3.0.4
install Livonya's 1.5.1 Beta MOD
install ShiningTeds new voices
install ShiningTeds MOD 1.2.1
use Humble PC patch {to prevent NPCs in party like Fruella and Otis from snagging the good stuff}
use the PC Count Patch v2 {for using 6, 7, or 8 PCs or using less PCs to use more than 3 NPCs}

Note: If you use just one module of 1 GB DDR memory [on boards that use DDR memory], use the fastest DDR you can have according to the motherboard FSB (Front-Side Bus).
- If your motherboard is FSB400, use DDR400, PC3200 in slot DIMM3. (FSB400 board is different)
- If your motherboard is FSB333, use DDR333, PC2700 in slot DIMM1.
- If your motherboard is FSB266, use DDR266, PC2100 in slot DIMM1.
- If your motherboard is FSB200, use DDR200, PC1600 in slot DIMM1.

 

question asked by Gaear

Could it be that the fabled ToEE nodes slowdowns have been due all along to improperly situated RAM modules?

 

not a simple answer in reply...sorry

(Abit AN7 FSB400 motherboard and Windows XP Pro SP2)

It's a combination of things that all need to be right for the game to play its best. To answer your question, how much RAM (in MegaBytes) is installed; what the brand of RAM is [its design and chips used]; and how many sticks of RAM [how it works with the motherboard architecture] are all probably the largest percentage of the total equation.
* I think it is okay to say here that poor RAM works poorly and better RAM works better. If you have a good brand of memory and use one stick of the maximum memory for one slot, that is the best situation. Unless, you can afford the cost to put two sticks of 1 GB DDR RAM in each of two slots, DIMM3 and DIMM2.
** Hint: Never put a Porsche engine in a go cart. The same applies to computers.

- You must have a motherboard with its BIOS flashed to the latest revision for the least CPU problems and data handling problems and also have the latest Windows drivers for XP running on top of it that allows ToEE to be capable to run more smoothly. I found that a motherboard with a nVidia chipset works better than when compared to an older, but somewhat similar motherboard with a VIA chipset when both are updated with their latest Windows drivers.

- You have to have a powerful enough video card with the latest Windows drivers. I would suggest a minimum of a AGP Radeon 9200 version with 128 MB RAM (not the 64 MB version), but, actually, would recommend something more powerful like a Radeon 9600 Pro or a Radeon 9800 Pro with either 128 MB or 256 MB RAM on the video card.

- XP has always been the worst memory hog in the Windows family of operating systems. XP handles what it uses in memory very well and exceptionally clean, XP just needs more RAM than other Windows operating systems, plain and simple, except for the new Vista which requires even more RAM. I found that using just one stick of PC3200 RAM, 1 GigaByte DDR400, works best, rather than two sticks of 512 MB DDR400 of RAM. The memory changes were the final step of perfecting how ToEE video plays.

- And finally, there are BIOS settings that can be changed [tweaked]. Here are the most important settings, if these settings are available to change on your motherboard BIOS.
* do not overclock. [IMO - If you want something faster, buy a better board and CPU and faster RAM.]
* disable - system bios caching
* disable - video bios caching
* disable - fast AGP writes
* increase the bios AGP aperature size [When using 1 GB DDR RAM, I set my AGP aperature to 256 MB even though my AGP video card has 128 MB RAM on it.]
* modify the AGP speed, 8x/4x/2x [I left mine at 8x on the nVidia board, compatible w/ video card.]

__[Alternately]_________
* Make sure you do not have any viruses/trojans or malware/crapware installed and hidden on your computer.
- a. Disable any old versions of antivirus software that are installed.
- b. Download + install/use all four of the following antivirus and antispyware software. (!!! do NOT reboot !!!)

-> PC-Cillin AntiVirus web-based scanner (Install this web piece and run a free online scan.)
=> PC-Cillin AntiVirus web-based scanner (connect + run online scan)

-> Install and download updates for Ad-Aware SE Personal [100 % free software] and Spybot - Search & Destroy [100 % free software].
=> Ad-Aware SE Personal v1.06 (download + install + update + run scan)
=> Spybot - Search & Destroy 1.4 (download + install + update + run scan)

-> PC-Cillin AntiSpyware web-based scanner (Download and install this web piece and run a free online scan.)
=> PC-Cillin AntiSpyware web-based scanner (download + install + run online scan)

___[More]_____________
* Disable your antivirus program and, possibly, Norton Internet Security program [if it is installed] for when you play ToEE.
* Try playing ToEE with a setting for the video display at a refresh rate of 75 Hertz using the drop-down menu inside of the game video options before starting a new game or loading a saved game.
* For Radeon video cards only, try disabling write combines in the Windows video display properties. (if available)
* For Windows XP, try selecting the radio button for the Windows pagefile to "let windows manage.."
* For all versions of Windows operating systems, delete the content of the TEMP folder -> all of the files and folders contained in and under the C:\Windows\Temp folder.

 

added hard drive information

You will notice I never mentioned the hard drive in this thread. That's because nothing ever had to be done with the hard drive. Having said that, for maximum performance, I would recommend you use a newer 7200 RPM large hard drive (like 40+ GB), not a 5400 RPM drive (like 20- GB).
* 7200 RPM means the disc in the drive spins at 7,200 Revolutions Per Minute.

What brand should be used [you wonder]? What is important is its U number, meaning the maximum frequency it transfers data in bursts rated in MegaHertz. The other important factor is the buffer size.
* Western Digital sells EIDE 7200 RPM U100 [max 100 MHz burst - Parallel ATA] drives. Large WD drives typically have a 8 MegaByte buffer.
* Maxtor sells EIDE 7200 RPM U133 [max 133 MHz burst - Parallel ATA] drives. Large Maxtor drives typically have a 2 MegaByte buffer.
* Seagate sells EIDE 7200 RPM U100 [max 100 MHz burst - Parallel ATA] drives. Large Seagate drives typically have a 2 MegaByte buffer.

All three are good. All three make good drives. I've seen all three have bad drives from the very day the drives were received. I've seen all three produce drives that become defective with bad sectors and, eventually, die.
* It's just like buying a car with regard to lemons, except you're more likely to buy a good hard drive than to buy a good car.

What do I do when buying a hard drive [you wonder]? I plan on buying a Western Digital hard drive, unless there is a big sell with a reduced price on a hard drive for a different brand and I save 20+ dollars. It's not rocket science. Just pick one and buy it as long as it is 7200 RPM.

*** CABLES ARE IMPORTANT ***
Remember to buy a 133 MegaHertz cable for a new hard drive to connect the new drive to the IDE controller connector on the motherboard. The rating of the cable will limit the transfer of data between the motherboard and the new drive. There are 33 MHz cables, 66 MHz cables, 100 MHz cables, and 133 MHz cables. Do not use the original, old cable that connected the old IDE hard drive to the motherboard IDE connector. It is worth the 12 or 20 US dollars to buy a new snazzy looking (round) high data capacity 133 MHz IDE cable, even if the new hard drive is only 100 MHz burst. Personally, I would buy and use a new 133 MHz round cable, instead of even using the new flat ribbon cable that comes with a new IDE hard drive to ensure maximum data throughput.

 

Just out of curiosity, why don't you recomend serial ata drives, like the WD Raptor, which spins at 10,000 rpm and has 72 GB? I still use two parallel 7,200 rpm WD dirves (one 80 GB primary drive with 3 partitions and one 40 GB compressed data drive), but boy I would love to have a pair of those raptors in striped raid configuration. If only I had the money.

 

some places to buy good stuff cheap

fyi - Here are good places I've found to buy computer hardware at low cost.

* Mouse-over and click the link description (right-side of the item) ... prices might change from what I found and is listed here, but the links should be valid or you can search that web site.

next, two low cost 7200 RPM, Parallel ATA hard drives..

-> www.compuplus.com
80 GB, 7200 RPM, ATA100, buffer 8 MB drive -> 44 US dollars = Western Digital 80 GB Hard Drive

-> www.compuplus.com
80 GB, 7200 RPM, ATA133, buffer 2 MB drive -> 50 US dollars = Maxtor 80 GB Hard Drive

* Notice on the linked web pages for these hard drives that, together, you can also buy BOTH a hard drive AND a copy of Windows XP Home Edition (full OEM, not an upgrade version) for about 120 US dollars...a totally sweet deal if you are looking to change over to Windows XP or are building a new PC.


next, two comparable motherboard combos, 1-AMD combo and 1-Intel combo
* each has a SiS chipset [not the very best, but good]...best is shown first..

-> www.outletpc.com
Mobo+CPU combo -> 129 US dollars = PCChips motherboard plus AMD AthlonXP 2800+ CPU plus heatsink/fan
• has SiS741GX + SiS963L chipset
• has integrated-onboard video = SiS 3D Graphics Real256E
• has integrated-onboard audio = AC97
• has integrated-onboard network LAN = RealTek
• supports AGP 8X/4X and USB2
• (must buy) needs DDR333 or DDR266 memory

-> www.3btech.net
Mobo+CPU combo -> 99 US dollars = MSI motherboard plus Intel Celeron 2.4 GHz CPU plus heatsink/fan
• has SiS648FX chipset
• has integrated-onboard audio = AC97
• has integrated-onboard network LAN = RealTek
• supports AGP 8X/4X and USB2
• (must buy) needs DDR333 or DDR266 memory
• (must buy) needs a video card


next, two real good DVD writers..

-> www.thetechgeek.com
Dual Layer Sony DVD Writer -> 59 US dollars = Sony 16X/8X DVD+/-R/RW & 4X DVD DL - Black/Biege

-> www.xpcgear.com
Dual Layer NEC DVD Writer -> 39 US dollars = NEC 16X/8X DVD+/-R/RW & 8X/6X DVD DL - Black/Beige/Silver


next, AGP video cards, 4-Radeon & 3-nVidia - low cost and ranked best to least..
* all are AGP video cards plus notice (1) the RAM and are (2) 128-bit or 64-bit

1 -> www.imagestore.us
ATI 9600 Pro AGP 256MB 128-bit -> 80 US dollars = ATI Radeon 9600

2 -> www.imagestore.us
ATI 9600 Pro AGP 128MB 128-bit -> 59 US dollars = ATI Radeon 9600

3 -> www.imagestore.us
nVidia FX 6200 AGP 256MB 64-bit -> 67 US dollars = nVidia GeForce 6200

4 -> www.zipzoomfly.com
nVidia FX 6200 AGP 128MB 64-bit -> 60 US dollars = ASUS GeForce 6200

5 -> www.imagestore.us
ATI 9600 Pro AGP 64MB 128-bit -> 42 US dollars = ATI Radeon 9600

6 -> www.newegg.com
ATI 9550 AGP 128MB 64-bit -> 48 US dollars = ASUS Radeon 9550

7 -> www.3btech.net
nVidia FX 5700 LE AGP 256MB 64-bit -> 50 US dollars = Chiefmax GeForce 5700


next, cool computer modding stuff..

-> www.xoxide.com
1. various computer cases you've never seen before -> http://www.xoxide.com/modifiedcases.html
2. various computer lights...all kinds of wild lights/LEDs -> http://www.xoxide.com/lighting1.html
3. cool fan grills...metallic, painted, UV reactive, bizarre -> http://www.xoxide.com/allfangrills.html
4. various new extreme computer gear -> http://www.xoxide.com/newproducts.html

****************************************

[EDIT-1] Use online web tools to determine specific System RAM memory needed by motherboard type using links to memory configurators in post # 88.

-> link to RAM memory configurators, post # 88

****************************************

[EDIT-2] inexpensive new LCD monitors

-> link to inexpensive new LCD monitors
* Scroll down the web page and look for (17") 17 inch monitors--the prices are between 210 and 250 US dollars for new 17 inch LCD monitors (with FREE USA SHIPPING). Computer LCD monitors seem to be the one kind of computer item the buy.com site has to offer.

****************************************

 

(October 2005)

I prefer Parallel ATA [PATA] hard drives due their low cost and wide availability for driving competition to lower their prices. It's not that I do not recommend Serial ATA [SATA] hard drives. If you have the money to spend, by all means, you can spend upwards of 200 or more dollars on about a 70 GB SATA drive. I like the idea that I can spend about 80 US dollars on a 120 GB PATA drive or spend about 100 US dollars on a 160 GB PATA drive.

There are not a lot of Serial ATA drives to chose from in production and they are very expensive when compared to Parallel ATA drives, just as you referred to that being the reason you do not have a SATA drive. I can buy up to 3 large capacity Parallel ATA drives on sale over the Internet for about the price of just 1 Serial ATA drive. SATA drives are an excellent choice to run RAID for redundancy. SATA drives are the best drives, in general, but are rather costly at this time.

SATA drives will eventually come down in cost. Wait to buy one. As far as gaming and playing ToEE goes at this time, you would be much better off spending money as far as I am concerned on maximizing the amount of your RAM memory modules and video card you have installed in your computer, rather than on a SATA drive at this time (October 2005). That is, unless, you have already upgraded everything else and want a better hard drive for your home game PC as a final upgrade.

 

my technical opinion..

I have tried various memory configurations involving seven different memory modules, DDR RAM - 256 MB, 512 MB, and 1 GB modules, as well as using five video cards, brand new Radeon and nVidia cards, and four motherboards, VIA and nVidia, in my tests and playing of the ToEE game on both Windows 2000 Pro and XP Pro SP2.

I, personally, would recommend the following.
- suggest a nVidia chipset motherboard...recommend K7 AMD Athlon XP 2500+, 3200+ CPU processors and K7 Socket A FSB400 (400 MegaHertz) boards, recommend Abit or GigaByte brand motherboards (Also, ASUS motherboards are great, but tend to cost more money.) [Biostar motherboards are good, too.]
Note: *** [please do NOT buy a Shuttle motherboard to install & play games on!] ***
- a minimum of 768 MB RAM and, preferrably, 1 GB RAM. [You should set the AGP Aperature in BIOS to 128 or 256 MB.]
- recommend a 7200 RPM 40+ GB hard drive
- suggest a Radeon 9200 or GeForce 5500...recommend a Radeon 9600 or nVidia 6200 or better addon AGP video card
- recommend a 5 channel or 6 channel audio integrated on new motherboards along with a good set of inexpensive speakers

!!! For sure!..check the new video card prices (as of Sep 30th) I have listed above in post #9...HOT...with links to the web pages!..
a Radeon 9600 Pro for 89 US dollars,
a Radeon 9550 for 52 US dollars,
and an inexpensive nVidia 6200 (not a PCI-express, either) for 70 US dollars.
I even listed 2 more companies I've used before and also found a new Dual Layer DVD Burner for 59 US dollars.

I hate spending extra money when I shouldn't have spent extra money. And, it makes me fell good inside when I can encourage others that most computers can be upgraded at a reasonable, low cost expense. Most people don't know where to start or what is needed or is good or is okay, etc. This is intended to be a general point of reference.

 

I agree with everything you said about SATA drives, though I do believe that if someone is thinking about upgrading their hard drive, and their motherboard supports SATA, they should consider a SATA drive. They are not prohibitively expensive.

A while back there were quite a few post about a memory access error that people were getting while playing ToEE. It was very similar to an error plaguing Half-Life 2 players, and Co8 was refering people to a thread on the HL2 boards. It seemed this bug was mainly effecting people with nForce 2 motherboards. Last I checked, the only fix the tech people at Valve came up with was to pull all the memory modules except the one in slot 3. I was having this problem at the time as well ( I run an Asus A7N8X Deluxe with nForce 2 400 chipset), but it turned out the culprit was Norton Antivirus. I find it highly interesting that you were able to significantly improve game performance by only using memory in slot 3. Why is it that these programs run better with the dual channel memory feature disabled?

 

What slots the memory modules are installed in determines whether it runs in dual channel mode or single channel mode if you use more than one module.

Abit recommends using slot DIMM3. So, I used slot DIMM3. I found using DIMM3 was good enough.

Where I saw an improvement was running 2 modules of 512 MB DDR400 in slots DIMM3,2 instead of using slots DIMM1,2.

I flashed the motherboard BIOS from a 2003 version to a newly recent 2005 version. This in and of itself corrected several potential problems with data handling on the motherboard buses.

The combination of flashing the motherboard BIOS in conjunction with using just one module of 1 GB DDR400 in DIMM3, instead of using two modules of 512 MB DDR400 in slots DIMM3,2, took me to having no problems.

Don't get me wrong, 2 modules of 512 MB DDR400 worked great and was effective, especially, if all I had done was to also flash the motherboard BIOS. I am just a perfectionist.

 

Yes, I understand all that. But why does effectively slowing down the front side bus as far as memory is concerned improve game performance?

 

That would be design questions, motherboard in conjunction with the memory module, memory bus architecture and data flow, data buffering, and timing and triggers between the motherboard and memory module.

You are thinking about 128-bit dual mode should be better in practice and use than 64-bit single channel mode. That is correct; 128-bit mode should be better than 64-bit mode. I edited my previous posts listed above in this thread to, hopefully, state the results I experienced more effectively.

Your statement involving "...slowing down the bus..." is not correct. Decreasing the size of the data bus, from 128-bits to 64-bits, is not where the improvement came from. It was the fact that the memory capacity was increased in one slot. I would expect the issue concerning your question is, at least, due in part to physical design, a limitation to possibly include compatibility.

On a serious note, it could also be something as simple as 1 GB DDR RAM being in one slot is sufficient in memory capacity to overcome the benefit of 128-bit dual channel mode (half as much memory in two slots). It could be possible that 512 MB DDR RAM in each of the three slots DIMM3,2,1 could be as efficient as 1 GB DDR RAM in one slot when seated in slot DIMM3. This could entirely be the case where there is no design issue.

Let me add that I only have two matched 512 MB DDR RAM modules, not three. So, at least - for now, I will not be testing the possibility of using three matched 512 MB modules in each of the three slots, DIMM3,2,1. I am going to buy a K7 AMD 3200+ 400 MHz CPU and do some additional testing before I proceed with anything else.

Right now with 1 GB DDR400 in slot DIMM3, it works beautifully with no errors or problems running ToEE, for 28 continuous non-stop hours of gaming, and that is what is important.