Trolls Goblins Giants Elves Dwarves

[Ayce]

Okay, my hand has been forced in this discussion.............


1. The appendices and silmarillion clearly state that Morgoth captured some of the earliest elves and twisted them to his purpose. I think I also read this in my handy Tolkienn companions. Yes Morgoth created them in mockery of elves, but he used elves as the "grist for his mill." He also created trolls in mockery of ents, but it isn't clear that he used ents to do this.

2. Gandalf did make mention of needing to find a decent giant to seal off the troll cave after the three trolls were turned to stone. There is mention of giants.

3. AD&D trolls and Tolkienn trolls bear little resemblance to each other.

4. Their is clear mention of Saruman using Dunlanders to interbreed with orcs to produce his Uruk-Hai. They are half-orcs and have human blood.

5. Goblins and orcs are clearly the same thing in Tolkienn's eyes. As someone said earlier, the Hobbit was aimed at a younger audience, hence the use of the term Goblin. LOTR was aimed at a more adult audience, hence the use of the term Orc. Any differences in the two would be due to the way Tolkienn portrayed because of his intended literary goals. All that said, someone else already mentioned (sorry, I don't remember who), Tolkienn's orcs are highly diverse and could be interpreted as seperate races. The goblins of Moria had clear differences with the Orcs of Mordor and the Urak-hai of Isengard (much less the goblins of the Misty Mountains).

Consider this, it's like the difference between a "california girl and a southern chick or a midwest farmer's daughter." All human, but all very distinct.

So how did we get on this subject?

[Cujo]

...It was me, I stole the cookies from the cookie jar.

[Shiningted]

gnome comes from the greek word nomos, which means law

You so TOTALLY made that up (the etymology, not the Greek translation).

My Little Oxford Dictionary defines gnome as 'goblin, dwarf' - figure that out!

Gandalf did make mention of needing to find a decent giant to seal off the troll cave

I think u will find it was the goblin's cave

Orcs used to be Elves

You stole my next point!

I stole the cookies

And the cookies!

AD&D trolls and Tolkienn trolls bear little resemblance to each other.

THIS is how we got onto the subject - I commented that a AD&D troll is very much what a Tolkien troll would look like (imho), because it looks like a corrupted ent (well it is thin and willowy with bird's nest hair).

[Lord_Spike]

...would dispute your claim, hal, if he were alive to do it.

http://www.rangerring.com/history/

--------------------------------

Bake and toast 'em, fry and roast'em!
till beards blaze and eyes glaze;
till hair smells and skins crack,
fat melts, and bones black
in cinders lie beneath the sky
so dwarves shall die...

Just what one needs to read to a child...if you're trying to raise a mass murdering arsonist. Hobbit = PG; LoTR = PG13...only because it's a bit more complicated and lengthy. Kids shouldn't be exposed to this until they can read and understand it for themselves.

--------------------------------

1. Tolkien has only one 'n' ;

2. Read Farmer Giles of Ham; not in LoTR, but a good giant story nonetheless; includes info on a reluctant dragon of sorts, too. Also not for young kids...and page 65 of the Hobbit, for giants;

3. Gygax didn't borrow everything from Tolkien;

4. Yep;

5. Tolkien...goblins=orcs; Gygax...goblins<orcs. Both agree to them being "different breeds".

Ted, I knew you had something to do with this...!

[Cujo]

Originally Posted by Shiningted

THIS is how we got onto the subject - I commented that a AD&D troll is very much what a Tolkien troll would look like (imho), because it looks like a corrupted ent (well it is thin and willowy with bird's nest hair).

Bye the way

Originally Posted by Cujo

I'm quite picky when it comes to how troll should look...

It all started because of the direction this thread was headed in.

You stealing my cookies you big meanie

[halarious]

You so TOTALLY made that up (the etymology, not the Greek translation).

did not!
ok, maybe the "lawyer" part, but that just makes a great visual.

[Ayce]

Waitasecond!!! I didn't steal the cookies, just the next point!! Cujo stole the cookies, he even admitted it................................

What do cookies have to do with trolls and elves????

We're not talking about lembas bread are we???

[Cujo]

The rabid dog strikes again

Nah we're not talking about lembas bread, I just wanted to put in my two cents about Trolls, Goblins etc, and see what everyone else had to say, very informitive so far. Although I do find it annoying that goblins and orcs are often counted as different species in modern things, my belief is when you're puting a creature into a fantasy world either make the whole thing up and give it a new name, eg my Garachi which is kind of like an orc, or base it on traditional myth, and using traditional myth have a good background story explaining how it got into the world eg a goblin is a dwarf orc or some thing like that.

just an after thought about orc blood, what metal has a black oxide, because iron is red eg hemoglobin, copper is blue eg hemocyanin in certain mollusks and arthropods, unless it's some thing new like hemogoblin. I was just wondering why orc blood is black

[Shiningted]

Ok Cujo i checked, i would say it was my comment about MM trolls vs Tolkieniac trolls INSPIRED by your comment about trolls pockets in the Hobbit that started this - we'll split the difference.

Anyway, I gave the cookies to Zeb for his Dungeon Lords review - he earned them.

Now get your hands off my lembas!!!

[Edit: black blood? Which humour was black - bile? Maybe they are bilious? Does too much bile make you bad tempered? Would explain a lot... they're certainly not phlegmatic!!!]

[Libri]

Originally Posted by Cujo

just an after thought about orc blood, what metal has a black oxide, because iron is red eg hemoglobin, copper is blue eg hemocyanin in certain mollusks and arthropods, unless it's some thing new like hemogoblin. I was just wondering why orc blood is black

Two possibilities below. First link: http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/B/blood.html

Excerpt When oxygenated, iridium-based blood would need to be shielded from light because of its high photosensitivity. The pigment slowly decomposes over a period of days or weeks when exposed to strong light, gradually changing color from orange to green and finally to a deep bluish-black. Iridium-blooded aliens would thus have to be dark skinned or inhabit a dimly lit world. (In the absence of light, the molecule is stable for years.)

So maybe orc blood is really orange, but looks black when exposed to light. Could also explain why orcs are generally depicted as having dark hued skin, and why they also shun light.

Second link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemoglobin

Excerpt from section other oxygen-binding proteins Pinnaglobin: Only seen in the mollusk Pinna squamosa. Brown manganese-based porphyrin protein.

Not quite black, but maybe mixed with other trace elements proteins could be close enough.

[Rook Hudson]

Gygax was a plagiarist. His use of the Tolkien race name orc to make a humanoid race in his fantasy rpg was plagiarism, even though the word orc is also used in the description of whales. Tolkien renamed his goblins orcs (to some in LOTR, to others they are called other names), and it was this use of orc that Gygax used, so his orc is the Tolkien orc, distorted through the garbled understanding of Gygax's brain. Gygax I think just got mixed up. I think he really thought orcs were different from goblins. It's just that simple.

As I wrote previously, if he knew orcs and goblins were the same, then when he made them separate he would have not used the name 'orc', so that the separation would be complete. Using the name 'orc' only meant confusion, as people like me years later would be pointing out the mistake he made. He could have avoided all this if he'd not used the name 'orc' for his humanoid race creation, but invented some other name completely separate. That he didn't do this, when he could so easily have done so, shows, to me, that he didn't think there was anything incongruous or confusing by calling his new race orcs. This can only make sense if he thought goblins and orcs really were different races. Q.E.D.

Gygax, and others like him, got it wrong, and these others have been defending their error ever since (its a hard thing to do for some people to admit they've got something wrong, so they keep on defending, defending in face of the evidence). Its like those who, in the face of heaps of evidence that the world is not flat but round, still go on defending the flat earth theory because to admit they got it wrong is to admit failure, so the earth is flat ...

Gygax got it wrong. Why can't we just accept this and then fix things so that this sort of error is not repeated into the future by others ?

As for the word elf the plural is not elfs, but elves (my Webster's Dictionary says so) and the word gnome comes from the greek gnome meaning 'thought, intelligence', not 'law'.

[Morpheus]

I don't know what all the fuss is about. Goblins and orcs are whatever the author who uses them in his work decides them to be. For Tolkien, they were one and the same, fair enough. Gygax described them as different races, where's the problem? Don't forget that goblins and orcs don't exist. There is no "evidence" in the real world that they actually are the same creature. They belong to the realm of fiction. Although Tolkien's body of work is certainly a reference in the world of fantasy literature, other authors (or game creators, for that matter) should be free to use the terms "orc" and "goblin" as they see fit.

[asimpkins]

What's so difficult with the idea that Gygax borrowed some elements from Tolkien and invented others as suited the needs of the game? It seems almost certain he took "orcs" from Tolkien... but Tolkien has no ownership of the term "goblin". Why does the fact that certain people referred to orcs as goblins in Tolkien's books prevent Gygax from using an ancient and universal term as he saw fit?

It's possible he was confused about Tolkien's world, but you have in no way proven it. How do we know he didn't just open up his dictionary and use the following definition of goblin: "an ugly or grotesque sprite that is mischievous and sometimes evil and malicious."

Gygax used many terms that were also used by Tolkien and expressed them in different ways -- wizards, trolls. It was a process of picking and choosing -- it's not a translation.

You also suggest a failed assumption that this scenario causes distress and confusion for the masses. I assure you that most people are not in any way bothered. Most people are perfectly capable of compartmentalizing Tolkien and D&D. They realize that when they play D&D certain terms will mean one thing, and when they read Tolkien these terms will mean something else.

[Rook Hudson]

I never wrote that Tolkien had ownership of the term 'goblin'. My point is that Gygax took 'orc' from Tolkien, and made it a separate race when in Tolkien it is not a separate race to the race of goblins, it is one and the same race. Since he took it from Tolkien he should keep it as Tolkien had it, another name for the race of goblins. In Tolkien's writings many of the beings and creatures had multiple names. Goblins had multiple names. So did dwarfs, Gandalf, elves, Sauron, and so on.

I never wrote that this error on the part of Gygax (which I believe was accidental, he just got confused) was causing 'distress and confusion for the masses'. I don't refer to people as 'the masses' normally anyway. Communists and die-hard lefties use this term in the main; I never used it in this thread.

If Gygax got his definition for 'goblin' from the dictionary, or some other non-Tolkien source, then fine, but the question then becomes: why call his new other humanoid race which he wanted to be different from goblins, 'orcs', when he must have known, in this case, that orcs were goblins in Tolkiens writings. It just doesn't make logical sense. Keeping the name 'orcs', knowing that in Tolkien, 'orcs' meant goblins, was inviting confusion or argument at some later date. He could have called his new humanoid race something non-Tolkienish and completely avoided this. Why didn't he ? The fact that he didn't lends weight to my argument that he simply thought that orcs were different from goblins. If he knew they were not then he was deliberately sowing the seeds for possible confusion and argument at a later date. I can't beleive Mr Gygax would have been that mean spirited or careless.

Why don't people, game designers, new AD&D DM's, and people writing fantasy related stuff simply do this, adopt a new name for 'orcs' which is not Tolkien derived ? I can't believe that so many people lack imagination to come up with a new name that would truly make what are now erroniously called orcs something else in name and so end this argument.

This is a tall order I admit. I think that orc as a name for some non-goblin humanoid race has become so ingrained into some people's brains that they cannot think of an alternative, but this doesn't cancel what I am saying, that using the name 'orc' for a non-goblin race is, given the source for that name (Tolkien), wrong. It's like having a race of creatures and calling them 'ents' (also from Tolkien) but giving them different characteristics from Tolkien. It can be done, but I would get upset about that as well. Especially if I knew that in so doing the person involved had otherwise kept a lot of Tolkien's creations intact in whatever these ents appeared in.

I think that you, Asimpkins, are an AD&D fan, player, DM or admirer, am I right ? You love the game, play or played it alot, and so hate it when someone criticises it, like me. You probably had goblins in your game, and orcs, out of the Monster Manual, or Monstrous Compendiums, or whatever passes for it now in AD&D, and so you have played all this time without even knowing or caring that originally orcs came from Tolkien and were goblins. And now I come along and raise a concern about it and this upsets you because it makes you uncomfortable. I have questioned your AD&D worldview, which you have probably immersed yourself in and live out in all your adventures. Am I right ? I bet I am close. Anyway this makes you uncomfortable and so you decided to have a go at me. OK, good for you.
But I still say Tolkien was plagiarised by Gygax, Gygax got it wrong with the use of the term 'orcs', and it is about time this mixup was addressed, whether you, Asimpkins, like it or not. This is my opinion. Others can say what they like, but my argument still stands and I am entitled to speak up about it, even if no-one else will.

Of course you are right in one sense. In an imaginary world anything can be called anything. But I am not arguing against this, only arguing that the current use of 'orcs' can be traced back to a mistake by Mr Gygax, perpetuated by others, defended by others, and still in use today in a public sense. In your own private world if you want to use 'orcs' to describe sea creatures with six legs, for example, or flying monsters with two heads, that is your own business. Just don't have a heap of other Tolkien related names in your works, leave these names attached to the descriptions Tolkien gave them, and then publish this and expect no argument from people like me.

That ain't gonna happen.

[halarious]

As for the word elf the plural is not elfs, but elves (my Webster's Dictionary says so) and the word gnome comes from the greek gnome meaning 'thought, intelligence', not 'law'.

go to http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/enggreek

this is an english/greek online dictionary, once there, type in law.
you will get many translations including:

gnoimos=lawful
nomos=laws
nomia=lawfulness
nomikos=laws,lawyer

and seventeen other translations with the prefix nomo.

as for the elfs, i'm pretty sure i read it in LOTR but it's been about 10yrs. since i've read it. if anybody out there has the 411, let me know please.

as for your dictionary, they go to the rootword wich is in ancient greek, so you are about 3 thousand yrs behind in your tanslation.

[halarious]

But I still say Tolkien was plagiarised by Gygax, Gygax got it wrong with the use of the term 'orcs',

did Tolkien then get it "wrong" when he changed elves and dwarfs to suit his story?

[Shiningted]

Exactly.

Gygax didn't get anything wrong, he simply made a choice. Why is that such a problem for you? If it bothers you, how bout he followed Tolkien for orcs but someone else for goblins, which were certainly pre-Tolkien? Or my Oxford dictionary definition above which suggests that in making gnomes different from dwarfs and goblins (gnomes were his early elves, the Noldor) Tolkien got it hopelessly wrong becasue they are all much the same. What a silly thing to be arguing about, I mean seriously, you TRULY, HONESTLY believe that Gary read the Hobbit and LotR and never got the point that the goblins in the first are the orcs of the second??? "Oooo look, since Bilbo found the ring, goblins seem to have died out and Orcs seem to have evolved, i better put them in my game as two seperate races". Be serious.

This sort of choice occurs in literature all the time. Don't even get me started on the names of Satan in the Bible and how they are subsequently used (if, indeed, they are all meant to be one figure, which is the whole source of the argument). Read more widely please.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/gnome - French, from New Latin, gnomus.

Of course the Latin may be derived from the Greek, but there seems to be some confusion between 'gnosis' - hence thought, intelligence etc - and 'nomos', meaning law. The two may well be cognate terms, but they are not identical.

[halarious]

oops! my bad.

in my last post the top line:
But I still say Tolkien was plagiarised by Gygax, Gygax got it wrong with the use of the term 'orcs',
was suppose to come out as somebody else quote.

i totally think anybody can use these names in any way they want.
orcs can be pink and pass out pamphlets at airports.
gnomes can chase ambulances through fields of daisys,and
dwarfs can wrestle in the WWE

its all good.

[halarious]

Of course the Latin may be derived from the Greek, but there seems to be some confusion between 'gnosis' - hence thought, intelligence etc - and 'nomos', meaning law. The two may well be cognate terms, but they are not identical

gnosis means knowledge. i know this to be true.

so did gnome come from gnosis or from gnomos?

will we ever really know?
or more importantly,
will we ever really care?

[Lord_Spike]

...are just that: elves, not elfs. If it ever did appear in his writings, it was in dialogue by a character who didn't know it was supposed to be elves...Ted Sandyman, or perhaps Gaffer Gamgee.

----------------

Gnome? Of course, I gnome...he's my brother!

[Mawhrin]

this is the reason why the german translation uses the (completely new) word "elb". "Elf" is exactly the same in German, but "Elves" wouldn´t have worked...

P.S.: I´m believe that you, Rook Hudson, are a troll. Nobody can be that agitated about a mere word...

---
kindly excuse my poor English

[halarious]

ok. in LOTR: the return of the king, appendix f, chapter 2.

Tolkien writes;" it may be observed that in this book as in The Hobbit the form dwarves is used, although the dictionaries tell us that the plural of dwarf is dwarfs."

maybe he was using a funny dictionary, or this rule of spelling does not apply to elfs(elves). maybe he was not a professer of languages at Oxford, he might have fooled us all.
me i believe in equality, if dwarfs can have an f, then elfs deserve one too.
they have just as much right to the f as anybody else, please do not take they're f away.

if you do not agree, all i can say is:

get the f out!

[Shiningted]

in my last post the top line:
But I still say Tolkien was plagiarised by Gygax, Gygax got it wrong with the use of the term 'orcs',
was suppose to come out as somebody else quote.

Yeah, for the record i got that - my 'exactly' was agreeing with your ironic rejoinder. And the 'you' i railed against was obviously Rook, not you ;-)

[asimpkins]

Originally Posted by Rook Hudson

Keeping the name 'orcs', knowing that in Tolkien, 'orcs' meant goblins, was inviting confusion or argument at some later date. He could have called his new humanoid race something non-Tolkienish and completely avoided this. Why didn't he ?

I'm guessing he used the word "orcs" because it was a vivid word already established in the minds of his customer base. I'm guessing he used the word "orcs" because he wanted to be able to fight orcs in his game. The advantages for using the familiar and established are obvious.

And I'm guessing he didn't then and never has wasted a moment in regret over the confusion and distress that this choice has caused a few fanatics. In fact, as far as I know, there's only one person on the entire planet that cares.

Why don't people, game designers, new AD&D DM's, and people writing fantasy related stuff simply do this, adopt a new name for 'orcs' which is not Tolkien derived ? I can't believe that so many people lack imagination to come up with a new name that would truly make what are now erroniously called orcs something else in name and so end this argument.

Two reasons:
1. It's not a simple task.
2. Most people prefer the system how it is now, they don't want to change it, and they could not care less about your agony.

I think that you, Asimpkins, are an AD&D fan, player, DM or admirer, am I right ? You love the game, play or played it alot, and so hate it when someone criticises it, like me. You probably had goblins in your game, and orcs, out of the Monster Manual, or Monstrous Compendiums, or whatever passes for it now in AD&D, and so you have played all this time without even knowing or caring that originally orcs came from Tolkien and were goblins. And now I come along and raise a concern about it and this upsets you because it makes you uncomfortable. I have questioned your AD&D worldview, which you have probably immersed yourself in and live out in all your adventures. Am I right ? I bet I am close. Anyway this makes you uncomfortable and so you decided to have a go at me. OK, good for you.

This was an extemely funny passage. Good job Freud. One wonders what aggressive psychoanalysis could make of your lifelong obsession with Tolkein's books and your raging Goblin/Orc fetish. I'm guessing you had a lot of Tolkein read to you during your anal stage?


The bottom line is you've moved away from persuading anybody that your opinion is important and you've begun to launch personal attacks at anybody who doesn't share your opinion. It's ridiculous and completely unpersuasive to attack anybody that disagrees with you as having an irrational d&D bias and being incapable of approaching the subject reasonably. I spoke up because I was embarassed for you. I thought maybe I could help you get some sort of perspective on the issue. But I can't, and that's fine with me also. Good luck in your crusade.

[asimpkins]

Oh... and for the record. I knew about Tolkein far before I was ever involved with D&D. I understood the Goblin/Orc thing from as far back as I can remember. Tolkein goes back to childhood; D&D I only got into recently so I could properly understand the rule system used in NWN. I've had very little opportunity to participate in PnP games. So D&D is hardly woven into the fabric of my life. There's no excuse there. I just genuinely think that your opinion is nuts. Sorry.

[halarious]

Yeah, for the record i got that - my 'exactly' was agreeing with your ironic rejoinder. And the 'you' i railed against was obviously Rook, not you ;-)

thank you for distingquishing me from our good friend Rook.

also, i would like to state that anything i post is intended in the spirit of good will. i truly believe that we all have valid opinions and feelings. no matter how strange some of them may seem to others.
if at anytime my sarcasim comes off as rude or abrasive to anyone, it is not meant that way, it is meant in fun.


p.s. my handle halarious, is not because i think i'm funny.
if you change 2 letters it becomes my real name.

(imagine the fun i had growing up!)

[Zebedee]

grr dwarves and elves. I'll also accept dwarrows for dwarves. Anything else is just plain wrong. Because I say so

Lord Spike - if you have the time, could you tell us some tales about the game world for ToEE? You write very well and I enjoyed what is on the Atari forums a lot. It will also save us from these semantic meanderings hehe

[Cujo]

According to my dictionary both Dwarfs abd Dwarves are correct. In fact there is never any reference to dwarves in my book of norse legends, only ever dwarfs, the book's printed in 1953.

Then the two most cunning of the Dwarfs, Galar and Fialar, steered the boat on to a rock. The boat split. Gilling, who could not swim, was drowned. The Dwarfs clambered up on pieces of the boat and came safely ashore.

Secondly I was going to disagree with this statement but now I agree with it.

Originally Posted by Morpheus

I don't know what all the fuss is about. Goblins and orcs are whatever the author who uses them in his work decides them to be. For Tolkien, they were one and the same, fair enough. Gygax described them as different races, where's the problem? Don't forget that goblins and orcs don't exist. There is no "evidence" in the real world that they actually are the same creature. They belong to the realm of fiction. Although Tolkien's body of work is certainly a reference in the world of fantasy literature, other authors (or game creators, for that matter) should be free to use the terms "orc" and "goblin" as they see fit.

If enough people think in one way about something made up then it becomes true, you need people to get it wrong so that change can occur. Sometimes "Orc" would be the best way to decribe the creature standing in front of you even if it is only about 90% accurate

Originally Posted by asimpkins

I'm guessing he used the word "orcs" because it was a vivid word already established in the minds of his customer base. I'm guessing he used the word "orcs" because he wanted to be able to fight orcs in his game. The advantages for using the familiar and established are obvious.

[Ayce]

Are you guys still at it????

First of all, gygax orcs bear little resemblance to to tolkien orc (thanx for the grammar lession by the way). Tolkien's orcs were never pig-like, or course, later interpretations of DnD orcs were more like tolkien's orc, but whatever

Humanoid races were meant to be the antithesis of demi-human races (which were largely based on tolkien I admit). Let's not forget it was tolkien that gave us our modern template of elves. Before tolkienn, they were largely fairies in neverland. As a brother race to man, that was tolkien all the way.

Tolkien's concepts were to some extent based on celtic and norse mythology, but still, even those elves were more mystical and fairyland like.

Back to Gygax, he took every legend, myth and fiction and tried to put in his game terms. As I became a more sophisticated gamer (not sure I really want to admit that), one of the problems I always had was how to fit so many diverse influences into one continuity. I mean greek titans next to christian demons alongside celtic leprachauns paralell to St Georgian dragons intertwined with persian lammasu and arabic djinn................stop, my head was going to explode!!!! This is when I started to develop distinct regions on my main continent and other distinct continents. When you think about it, this mythological/ledendary/fictional hodgepodge we call DnD was (and I guess still is) a real mess.

Compound that with the fact the Gygax botched everything (Lammasu were basically angels and djinn were basically demons in persian terms for example). Pegasus was about the only thing he didn't botch, how can you screw up a winged horse? OK, pegasus was the last of the winged horses in greek mythology and they weren't actually called pegasi, but we have to settle for what we can get.

My point, there's a lot more to fuss about than goblins and orcs in gygax's creation, but we all still played in anyway, didn't we? :-)

[Rook Hudson]

I want to state why I care so much about this orcs and goblins thing. Some other writers on this thread have asked why I care so much and stated, as if proving some point, that I seem to be the only one who cares.

The answer is simple: I just don't like what Gygax did to Tolkien. To some my concerns might be trivial, even pointless. Why is that Rook Hudson so concerned about this orc/goblin thing, etc, etc. Because when something comes to my attention which seems like an injustice, no matter how small, then I speak out. In a work environment I am the office whistleblower, the person everyone else hates because most other people couldn't care less, can't be bothered, or don't like stepping out of line with their fellow workmates. But not me, if something is wrong, I speak out.

Of course some people are going to disagree with me, or agree in theory but then say, what's all the fuss about anyway. Well, to me, it's not the size of the injustice that determines when someone should say or do anything about it, its the fact that the injustice exists, period. If I was given a TOEE alignment I would probably be, on this issue and others like it, LG. No compromise, no retreats. It is not really about orcs or goblins, it is about righting an injustice. This is why I get all worked about it. Anyway ...