Tripping Bug

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by hellblazer, Feb 6, 2014.

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  1. hellblazer

    hellblazer Established Member

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    I was never aware of this because my tripper has always been high strength but if your dex is higher than your strength it goes like this:

    You roll for touch attack (uses strength never dex) Bug1

    you roll to trip (always uses your strength (bug 2) while the defender gets your higher dex bonus to resist) Bug3

    Defender gets to roll to trip you and you use their dex bonus instead of yours! bug4

    I wonder why I never heard of any high dex monk or monk/rouge player mention this?
     
  2. G3N13

    G3N13 Member

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    Have you tested this with and without weapon finesse?
     
  3. Salk

    Salk Established Member

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    This should be irrelevant.

    This is what the manual says about Trip attacks:

    Trip an Opponent: To make a trip attack, make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the target as normal for unarmed attacks. If the attack succeeds, you make a Strength check opposed by the defender's Dexterity or Strength check (whichever has the higher modifier). If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you.

    About hellblazer's testing results:

    "bug1" is not a bug if your character does not have the Weapon Finesse feat (which allows the use of the Dexterity bonus in stead of the Strength bonus for unarmed and light weapons attacks).

    "bug2" is not a bug at all. The manual speaks explicitly of a Strength check to attempt the trip.

    "bug3" and "bug4", if confirmed, are most definitely bugs and should be addressed at once! :dizzy:
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2014
  4. Salk

    Salk Established Member

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    I immediately wanted to verify the presence of these bugs so I tested it myself.

    Both bug3 and bug4 are confirmed!

    When you attempt to trip an opponent, he uses YOUR dexterity bonus to defend against your attack.

    When he trips you back, you defend using HIS dexterity bonus.

    In short, the bug is in the defense mechanism, the two opponents use each other's dexterity bonus to defend with instead of their own.

    How difficult is to fix this? Can anyone give us a pointer as to what editing tool might be used for this purpose?

    Thanks!
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2014
  5. G3N13

    G3N13 Member

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    I got that, but considering how easy it would be to handle attack bonus mostly as an on-off flag, having Finesse impact all other AB calculations wouldn't have surprised me.
     
  6. hellblazer

    hellblazer Established Member

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    Bugs 3 and 4 are still present with weapon finesse and the defender of the trip will always use your dex if it is higher than their strength (even if your strength is higher than your dex).

    I guess a tripping character should only have a dex of 10 then?
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2014
  7. Salk

    Salk Established Member

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    Yes, bugs 3 and 4 are always present no matter what.

    It's a bug in the engine. My question is: can it be fixed?
     
  8. tomthefighter

    tomthefighter Errr......

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    >This provokes an attack of opportunity from the target as normal for unarmed attacks.

    Does this also apply to a Monk, someone with Improved Unarmed Combat, or Improved Trip?
     
  9. hellblazer

    hellblazer Established Member

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    a monk won't draw aoo attacking with fists but will provoke them if atempting to trip before acquiring improved trip at 6th level.
     
  10. tomthefighter

    tomthefighter Errr......

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    Interesting -

    Do these rules also apply to monsters, ie Bugbears?

    Bugbears - I'll have to watch for Party member aoo when one of those furry &$%^! tries to trip one of guys again.
     
  11. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Administrator

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    Said bugbears have 'improved trip', you'll find (they used to enrage me til I realized they were built to do it).
     
  12. tomthefighter

    tomthefighter Errr......

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    >Bugbears ... Improved Trip

    I think that makes them some of the most dangerous critters in TOEE.
     
  13. hellblazer

    hellblazer Established Member

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    A work-around this problem is to give high dex PCs stability by using the console.
    Disclaimer: Using the console basically voids your official co8 support because it screws up troubleshooting.

    Type: (Assuming the PC you want to give it to is in the left most portrait)

    game.party[0].condition_add_with_args('Monster Stable', 0 , 0)

    You should see the text "1L" appear if it was successful. The feat will not appear on the character sheet.

    Credit for this discovery goes to Darmagon with an assist to Ted although his syntax didn't work for me in the console but perhaps it works in script? in this thread in the modding forumhttp://www.co8.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2460

    Yes. You can add feats in the console. Amazing!
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2014
  14. Forgalz

    Forgalz Established Member

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    I've mentioned in another thread that high DEX trip rogues in my experience suck, but I thought it was only because of the STR requirement for the trip attack and chalked the continual counter-tripping up to bad luck with rolls. Your discovery explains a lot!
     
  15. G3N13

    G3N13 Member

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    FYI Magic vestment cast on a hat or a cloak seems to give +1 bonus to trip to my monk with a title 'Masterwork:' eg. '+1 Masterwork: Coolie hat'. :)
     
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