Best Possible AC?

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by Kharagh, Oct 5, 2014.

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  1. pblack476

    pblack476 Established Member

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    I know that. I was just referring to Equipment AC to simplify things. It's all about the difference, not the absolute value.
     
  2. XVicious

    XVicious Established Member

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    I was just thinking maybe if you added the BASE + 10 AC to all your totals in your explaination, it does not look confusing.


    When I see you say AC I assume your adding +10 base
     
  3. Kharagh

    Kharagh Established Member

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    Amulets of natural armor are supposed to grant an enhancement bonus to your NATURAL ARMOR, whereas the armor bonus for black elven chain is an enhancement bonus to ARMOR. They should (and do) both stack (along with any enhancement bonus to your shield).

    What should NOT stack (according to D&D rules) is barkskin and amulets of natural armor. Both of those grant enhancement bonuses to natural armor. BUT, in this game, they do stack (so a druid or plant cleric in your party can end up granting a +10 boost to everyone's AC [and barkskin lasts a really long time]).
     
  4. Kharagh

    Kharagh Established Member

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    I'm pretty sure this is NOT true for D&D in general. And it's not really true in this game either unless you have a crazy-good DEX and Wis AND spend levels on monk (which in my opinion is a waste for any character that is not a druid, sorcerer, or wizard [can't cast spells with good armor - and only the druid is likely to have a really high Wis] or pure monk).

    That being said, I do agree that you can get a really good AC without armor. Without the introduction of black elven chain, I think you would be right that everyone would be better off not using armor unless they have a horrible DEX (11 or less). And DEX is so important it should be everyone's 1st or 2nd highest ability score, so you would have to roll horribly to have a bad DEX.
     
  5. Kharagh

    Kharagh Established Member

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    I wouldn't say shields are irrelevant. Using a shield prevents gaining any monk bonus. And because your shield (with enhancement bonus) can give you a +7 AC in this game, the shield is a big part of why it doesn't make sense for most characters to take a monk level. EXCEPT, in this game a monk's bonus does stack with a buckler's bonus - so the monk can still get a +4 from shield (+7 if he casts the shield spell).
     
  6. Kharagh

    Kharagh Established Member

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    I have never been able to get tattoos without them crashing my game (admittedly - only tried once), BUT in theory, they should not stack with the amulet. That means both armored and unarmored characters can both benefit the same from tattoos and amulets - so those become just as irrelevant as rings.

    What you are left with is an unarmored character having +5 from bracers and UP TO +10 in DEX (+15 total) vs. +16 for armored (black elven chain). So armored is a little better.

    ALSO, the +10 from DEX can only be reached at 16th level. So for mid-level characters, the comparison will be more like +13 for unarmored and +16 for armored. Both +5 bracers and black elven chain only become available after reaching Verbobonc. So for lower-level characters, you should compare +3 bracers + dex vs. blue elven chain (mithral only surpasses blue elven chain after you can enchant it to +3 - at 9th level). At low levels you probably don't have much in the way of gloves of dexterity, so the +4 DEX allowed from blue elven chain probably isn't TOO restrictive.

    Also, keep in mind with your "+10 DEX" number, this requires that you not be enlarged (which gives a -2 to DEX). All melee characters should be enlarged ALL THE TIME. And only melee characters really need a good AC. SO, the max DEX for a non-elven melee character (using a halfling in melee doesn't really make sense) ends up being +8 - which is exactly what black elven chain supports.

    SO, from an optimization standpoint, all melee combatants should use black elven chain (UNLESS the character has druid, monk, sorcerer, or wizard levels).
     
  7. short

    short Member

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    They don't stack in the game either.
     
  8. pblack476

    pblack476 Established Member

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    You make good points. But I tend to play smaller parties and reaching lvl 10 isn't uncommon before DL3. Then I can make bracers +5 before facing hendrak or the nodes. Also, mage armor gives +4 almost from the very beginning, if we include spells in the mix. +6 DEX gloves are possible at lvl 6 or 9 (i don't remember witch) too.


    Also, tattoos can only be worn by unarmored chars in the armor slot. So you cannot wear one while wearing armor. They are not irrelevant to the comparison and that's why I say they push unarmored chars to the top of the chart.


    Doing the math, I found that the best AC before verbobonc at level 10 for an unarmored PC is 10+16+rings+shield+amulet*+racial bonuses

    the 16 points are for:

    +3 amulet of natural armor (replaces tattoos)
    +5 bracers
    +8 DEX (20 + 6)

    All the rest could be worn on top of any character so we can disregard. (exception for amulets of natural armor)

    The armored version can reach 17 from the mithral plate +3 from the amulet. I don't know if the Ioun stone for AC helps any of those thou.

    So yeah, the armored actually has a 1 point advantage. But the mithral armor hampers your mobility, it is not advisable for 100% of the fighting classes, it hampers spellcasting and it makes tumbling impossible for all but dwarves. The benefit of it is that you retain an extra 4 points of AC bonuses while flatfooted when comparing to the unarmored char.

    I consider maximum tumbling better than 1 AC point. And if you take an enchanted mithral shirt instead (second best early game armor), you would have the exact same AC as the unarmored char. But still have some spell failure.

    After verbobonc the calculations are the same. The armored would gain 2 extra AC with the black elven chain (in comparison with mithral plate) and the unarmored would stand to gain 2 AC from DEX.


    So yeah... armor can get you 1 AC point over the unarmored chars. I was wrong in thinking otherwise. But still... to abandon tumbling before verbobonc is unthinkable to my playstyle. I don't think 1 AC is better than maximum (or even half) ranks in tumbling.

    But I got to say... I like the black elven chain. And when you get to verbobonc, there's no good reason not to use it.
     
  9. Kharagh

    Kharagh Established Member

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    +6 Gloves require Lev 9. But I stopped crafting items that can be bought later - because I always max out on gold faster than XP.


    But they are irrelevant if both the unarmored and armored characters have amulets of natural armor of +2 or more. The tattoos don't stack with the amulets - making the tattoos completely useless.
     
  10. Daryk

    Daryk Veteran Member

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    Not necessarily. The one drawback I can think of off the top of my head is that if you're wielding Scather (or Fragrach) with two hands (and maximized Power Attack), you shift to one handed use when you're enlarged. When you're fighting things that are insanely hard to hit, being able to maximize your damage on every hit matters (of course, you could always dual wield Scather AND Fragrach, but that takes some serious work). For mere mortals (i.e. without Scather, and not trying to kill a demi-god), regular reach weapons are usually enough (with Great Cleave and Combat Reflexes, of course).
     
  11. Kharagh

    Kharagh Established Member

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    Mithral Shirt +3, +6 DEX = +13 (amulet is irrelevant)

    pre-Verbobonc, my enlarged human characters never have more than a 23 DEX, so for me, the mithral shirt would be better than bracers +5 (and I can still tumble). BUT, I'm not going to craft a +3 mithral shirt when there is a suit of black elven chain waiting for me in Verbobonc.

    So, I usually end up
    (a) enabling access to Verbobonc before beating Zuggy [thanks, console],
    (b) bypassing Zuggy at low-level by taking the gems, OR
    (c) using blue elven chain until Verbobonc (+12 AC, which is still better than what my characters would have with the armor spell (+enlarge) and a 20-24 DEX (+9 to +11)

    But absolutely, if my character has druid, sorcerer, or wizard levels, no armor is DEFINITELY the way to go (and it's not a big drop-off from the elven chain).
     
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