Ashrem and Alremm

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by aanalore, May 18, 2013.

Remove all ads!
  1. aanalore

    aanalore Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    0
    Has anyone ever brought the two of the two of them together? I did - a while ago in the vanilla game. And....nothing happened. :(

    Anyway, I think this might be an interesting storyline to explore in a mod. Surely, Ashrem wants revenger on his brother.
     
  2. Pygmy

    Pygmy Established Member Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2010
    Messages:
    674
    Likes Received:
    71
    The problem with that suggestion is the fact that Ashremm is now a resident of the air node (or whereever he is found). He can only exist outside that node in your party. His primary motivation must be to make himself indispensable to you unless he wants to spend the whole of his life alone on a rocky outcrop.
     
  3. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2004
    Messages:
    11,029
    Likes Received:
    42
    They do interact, actually. I believe the vanilla scripting was broken and we fixed it.
     
  4. HeJason

    HeJason JK2 Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2006
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thats cool, I did not know they now interact. Im gonna have to try that. :thumbsup:
     
  5. edmortimer

    edmortimer Occupy Wall Street

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2014
    Messages:
    97
    Likes Received:
    0
    I brought them together in my current game and the fight between them was epic -- they had their little dialog, and then the battle commenced, they were across the room from each other, facing each other, while the rest of the party and the werewolves were in both corners. I had the other party members concentrate on the werewolves (they be tough enough, fer sure, yo), and for almost the whole battle Alremm threw spells at Ashrem, and I had Ashrem hurl curses and such back at Alremm. But then my charmed Bugbear ran over and put the kabosh on Alremm. It was a good climax . . . but after it was over, Ashrem didn't know that he had battled his brother -- the dialog was the usual one when you kill Alremm before meeting Ashrem.

    Anyway . . . I'm also having a problem with the citizens of Hommlet now, and wonder if it's because Ashrem is in the party. The party's been knighted and such, doesn't have any bad reputations, and the greetings from the citizens of Hommlet are indicative of their love and respect, yada, yada. However . . . it all started when I went to offload some crossbows at Armario's. Armario's wife enters combat with us as soon as we enter the house. If left alone she flees. Armario remains unconcerned . . . I exit, and the Badger walking by is unconcerned . . . I enter another building (tested with the Cuthbert temple, the Wench and walking past Brother Smyth) and the residents there enter combat, fleeing but provoking AoOs.

    At first I thought it was because I gave Ashrem the Air Elemental Power Gem, and somehow that tripped a flag that Temple priests were getting the Power Gems, or some such. But even without the Power Gem they go hostile. I've had Ashrem in the party for some time without incident. I've just come back from the Water Node . . . I have used the Skull (Poison) twice. . . I gave it to Kwerd, now the self-proclaimed King of the Goblins, along with Lareth's club so he could have a proper orb & scepter with which to rule . . . anyway, maybe using the Skull set a flag?

    Or is it all just a bug? It seems every time I get to level 10 something goes buggy no matter how 'cleanly' I try to play. Therefore I haven't played much of the new content in Verbobonc, which i really want to do. I have not used the console. I have not modded anything in this playthrough except Kwerd's dialog file. I have only taken Rufus (died 3 times and resurrected three times), Pishella, Kwerd and Ashrem along as NPCs, not interacting with any of the others except for the essential quests to put places on the map. This is the only game that has been run on this particular install.

    So, I guess my question is: Does Ashrem make interaction with Hommleters impossible, did Rufus dying three times in battle give me a bad rep (even though the greetings indicate I'm still a hero), is Kwerd being a goblin a factr 9though he's been around from Level 0 thru 10 with no problems), or did a creepy-crawly bug sneak in somewhere? Any ideas?
     
  6. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2004
    Messages:
    11,029
    Likes Received:
    42
    Could be a variety of things I suppose ... do you have Kwerd dominated, or how is it that he's in your party?

    Most likely it's another quirk of the Butcher rep routine. We'll probably have to fix that eventually like we did with Paladin falling and the drinking contest - make a substitute reputation and disable the original.

    Most townsfolk type NPCs are scripted to skip their enter combat routines btw so as to avoid those idiotic suicide attacks, but it only works some of the time ... typical ToEE. They're also scripted to flee on their turn if they end up in combat anyway, which is why they're running off, and naturally that works 100% of the time. :roll:
     
  7. edmortimer

    edmortimer Occupy Wall Street

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2014
    Messages:
    97
    Likes Received:
    0

    I modded Kwerd's dialog file so that he's recruitable, and so he'll put up text floaters for party banter. I did that before meeting him, and recruited him immediately thereafter. He's been with me the whole time because he's only recruitable once. Ashrem's been with me for 3 level-ups, so Rufus has been gone for that same length of time. I also suspect the Butcher of Hommlet rep, but if so it's being real sneaky. It's been a while since Rufus died & came back 3 times . . . and there's no indication otherwise of such being the case.

    An oddity in this whole thing -- if I engage brother Smyth in dialog then he won't attack. He greets me as a hero. I can then walk away, barter or whatever. However, if I just walk past him (up to him and on) he initiates combat. Also, Jinnerth doesn't enter combat with me, like Armario he acts normal. I'll check with Burne & Rufus hisself in a bit . . .

    I guess I don't need Hommlet anymore . . . I'm almost to Verbobonc, and well, I'll take on Zuggy without destroying the Orb.
     
  8. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2004
    Messages:
    11,029
    Likes Received:
    42
    You could try the console code

    Code:
    game.party[0].reputation_remove(1)
    and see what happens.

    The hero/attack business is not really surprising, as the scripts are working as intended for if you build up enough positive rep, and the KOS stuff is still just being wonky regardless.

    Not really sure about Kwerd ... he was probably not meant to be an NPC and may get an automatic negative reaction from townsfolk, being a monster. Might try removing him and see how they react.
     
  9. edmortimer

    edmortimer Occupy Wall Street

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2014
    Messages:
    97
    Likes Received:
    0
    OK, I went and ran around the Earth Node for a bit then came back to East Hommlet . . . and Burne, Rufus & the Badgers were cool with me. Next I went to Brother Smyth, and he was cool . . . over to the Wench . . . and although the map transition took a long time just as when their reaction is hostile, they were not hostile. However, there was evident lag occuring like the game -wanted- to attack but was confused. I could walk around the Wench, and engage villagers in dialog without consequence.

    So anyway, for the moment all is OK. I'll try the console command should it happen again. Thanks for the quick help!

    Having Kwerd in the party never invoked any negative response/dialog from the villagers even when I was first level -- and he's been with the party ever since (now level 10). SO if it is a problem it is one that is not making itself known otherwise -- I was on the watch for any problems at all that having Kwerd along might bring. When I modded Nybble, Chandra & Gleem for my all-Gnome party it didn't work out well, and I chalked it up to them having roles in Verbobonc that somehow was interfering (they kept on running off if any dialog was started with them). So I was conscious of the possibility of problems arising -- but could perceive none at all until this incident -- and Kwerd is not implicated in any way except that he's been modded, and therefore a suspect because of that.
     
  10. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2004
    Messages:
    11,029
    Likes Received:
    42
    Been looking into the hostility thing a bit in general and this is as good a place as any to address it ...

    Okay, so the Kwerd issues aside, what the basic problems seem to be are:

    a. NPCs sometimes go hostile for no good reason.
    b. not all NPCs go hostile equally or sensibly.
    c. many NPCs who don't have any business fighting don't avoid combat well.

    So what are the reasons NPCs go hostile at all?

    a. they're flagged or scripted to kill on sight (mostly monsters).
    b. you have a reputation that offends them so badly that their reaction score has gone off the rails into 'attack' territory.
    c. you've accrued enough negative reaction points that they do the same (can happen by amassing several negative reputations).
    d. you attack a fellow faction member with them present.

    Let's look at the not uncommon scenario where players get attacked in Hommlet when they don't have a negative reputation, most demonstrably when going into the inn.

    By day, the inn's main floor has the following occupants:

    - Ostler and his wife
    - Spugnoir
    - Furnok
    - a badger
    - 12 generic patrons

    The way the Butcher of Hommlet rep is currently set, only the badgers will attack you outright (so as to avoid silly suicide attacks from Grandma and little Johnny like in vanilla). This was a good idea, but it was not comprehensive enough. Others should attack too, like any militia members and big stuff NPCs. The badgers have a unique faction that allows this, but the others who should attack don't share it, which is why you can have a badger attack you but not Burne or Brother Smyth, etc. So we can fix this by adding big stuff NPCs and militiamen et al to the Badger faction.

    The way I figure it, Butcher enforcement attackers in Hommlet should include the Badgers (which would also include Burne, Rufus, and Pishella), the St. Cuthbert priests (including Terjon and Calmert), known militiamen (Elmo and Captain Renton), militia wannabes (the tailor), and the Old Faith pimps (Jaroo and Bro Smyth). Everybody else should stay out, although other significant NPCs share the Hommlet citizen faction and will join the attack if they're present (like Spugnoir), but they won't initiate it themselves.

    So this will fix the 'who attacks' problem.

    However, most all Hommlet generic citizens also share that faction ('Hommlet Citizen') with the Butcher enforcers, so if combat starts like in the inn, they can't help but be pulled in. (This is an engine weakness - there's no way to stop it from happening. But it also serves a purpose in that it allows citizens to be defended by badgers and whatnot.) So how can we address that? We don't want them involved in enforcement.

    Well there are a few things we can do. Currently they're flagged 'no attack' so they won't ever attack you within the combat system itself (they just stand there), and they're scripted to run off on their turn, but this is bad for a couple reasons, mainly that NPCs who run off don't always go away reliably (they may be gone/invisible but still there, which can lead to issues with going back to the map), and NPCs who should be there afterward, like the innkeeper, are just plain gone after that. That's goofy because he wouldn't permanently flee his own property/operation. The 'no attack' flag is great, but sadly combat will continue when they're the only ones left and you have no choice but to kill them in order to end the combat. So 'no attack' is not a good enough solution in itself.

    So, we need to stop the running off but we still don't want them in the combat. So what I devised to do this eventually, and it works well, is this:

    When combat starts, they'll unavoidably be in the queue and you can kill them before their turn if you want. But on their turn, they're scripted to turn off and display a float line that says "Hiding!" to simulate that they've taken cover. If that happens, they'll be unavailable (totally, not partly, not vulnerable to AoE spells etc.) for the rest of the combat. I think this is fine because they were never meant to be involved anyway, even if it technically is 'cheating' in terms of the ruleset - I assume they should have to flee and make a reflex save or something, but I doubt anyone really cares. But this will result in them being very good at getting away - too good really, so if you're actually trying to kill them, they'll do the same thing and always get away if you don't take them out before their turn. I think it's an acceptable trade off though.

    When the combat first begins, they're scripted to remove the party from their shitlist and adjust their reaction favorably so that they don't go hostile later. For some reason, this only works on their enter combat script, which is goofy timing-wise, but hey at least it works.

    When combat ends, they're scripted to turn back on. However, only one NPC per map will actually turn back on at that time for some goofy reason. But if you change maps and come back, they'll all magically be there again (as if they crawled back up from under the table lol), AND they won't be hostile. Yay! The innkeeper, for example, will still even give you his negative response if you talk to him (which he does due to the Butcher rep), so it actually feels right. (Other NPCs could stand some tweaking in terms of how they react to someone who just killed some people in their presence, but hey we do what we can.)

    There are no issues with NPCs who go through this routine, unlike NPCs who run-off but partly stay as ghosts (and can often be targeted with AoE spells), which can lead to problems. So this solution is clean.

    Okay, so that leaves the why do they attack in the first place if you're not The Butcher question, and that I still don't know. The only thing I can think of to try to address that is make an alternate Butcher rep like we did with the drinking contest victor rep and hope that some internal routine that causes the problem is avoided that way. We'll see how that goes.

    All this trouble for a scenario that will only rarely be entered into (volitionally) anyway ... funny. ;)

    [edit]

    While working on this it also struck me that certain enforcers - like say a single badger in the inn - should evaluate the risks before attacking. We could probably achieve this through a dialogue intervention where they run a script to check for group party level or something and if it's too high, they either back down or flee with an "I'm telling!" warning or something like that.

    I don't think even the most highly trained and trusted law enforcement types are expected to die for a principle, especially when they could be more effective by providing intelligence to the good guys.

    [edit 2]

    Furnok is faction-free btw, so he'll already happily stand there while you murder everybody and not think anything of it. Might be nice if he didn't offer to play cards after that though. Zert, Turuko, and Kobort are the same by night, but the brewhouse guys will have to be adjusted to hide.
     
  11. edmortimer

    edmortimer Occupy Wall Street

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2014
    Messages:
    97
    Likes Received:
    0

    That all sounds great -- I think redefining the factions is a Good Thing (tm), As for Furnok still wanting to play cards . . . after the slaughter I think he'd still offer -- but he wouldn't cheat! ;)
     
Our Host!