The ToEE version of a Shadowdancer

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by pblack476, Oct 3, 2014.

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  1. pblack476

    pblack476 Established Member

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    I'm fiddling around with a rogue type that has mainly illusion spells to aid him/her in combat.

    The shadowdancer is my favorite prestige class of all time. (Well, from CPRG's at least)

    Here's my first draft:

    EDIT: One thing to note is that all monk builds take 20% XP penalty after you take more than 3 levels in the secondary class.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2014
  2. pblack476

    pblack476 Established Member

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    Right now I'm soloing the game with this char.

    In the beginning its impossible to take the heat alone so I ran and got Otis. But taking care to ONLY bringing him to places where surviving without him would be impossible. Waiting a level before leveling up and with some sneaky tactics to milk the maximum amount of XP the char is lvl 8 and is just starting the moathouse.

    By keeping rogue levels at 2 until lvl 9, I managed to avoid XP penalties.

    The temple is still unvisited.

    The only quests left undone are: Imeryds Run, Assassin encounter and Nulb ambush

    Burne helped me charm the giant to get the head and I did not heal Otis and when he was at near death, I turned on him an killed him for 4500XP.


    The char is a very slow starter so I'm really milking everything for XP ASAP. But now, at lvl 8, it started to be really fun.

    With Owl's wisdom, the ring from tolub, gautlets +4 from skole ,bracers +3 from lodriss and tattoos my AC is already 30 in the moathouse. Damage is still really low and to hit is only +10 with a masterwork weapon, but with mirror image + displacement this guy can just stay there as long as he wants to and not take damage.

    I'm just wondering if I should spend some feats on (greater) enchantment focus or weapon focus+TWF instead. I forgot that the buckler nulls the wisdom bonus from monk so now the spiked chain became more attractive. But I really like critical range bonuses. It just seems wasteful to see that off hand slot empty.


    One thing i did not know is that gaseous form causes miscasting, so I'll leave that spell only for the direst situations. And I forgot that quickened spells are 4 levels higher. That's too much for this build so I traded it for heightened spells. If you mix a little bit of charming spells this can really be a viable solo build for at least a big portion of the game. And soon burne will be crafting him some bursting weapons and it will be fireworks everywhere.


    EDIT: Until lvl 8 i had no XP penalty. But the moment I took the 3rd rogue level by lvl9, like this:

    M1/R3/W5

    I started getting what seemed to be 40% XP penalty! I'll wait for burne to reach the same lvl as my PC to make a more accurate comparison. But burne got 500xp in a combat where the char got 300. It was right on the dot, 40%. But other combat sessions give XP that vary in different ways so I think it might be a coincidence.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2014
  3. Kharagh

    Kharagh Established Member

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    (All builds end up with 3 attacks p/ turn at lvl 20 without haste)

    Rogue 10/Bard 10 - 5d6 sneak attack, 1 rogue bonus feat, full rogue BAB, can cast with armor but loses phantasmal killer and free metamagic feats

    NOT full rogue BAB: 7 from rogue, 7 from bard = 14 BAB NOT 15.
    I recommend 12/8 instead of 10/10


    Monk 1/ Rogue 8/Wiz 11 (Illusionist) - 4d6 sneak attack, more spells/day, WIS AC, gets Mislead, 2 free metamagic feats

    In TOEE, you can only be a specialist if you start that way at 1st level - that means sacrificing lots of skills relative to starting as a rogue. Also this build would be a very slow starter in terms of BAB (no bonus from 1st level of any classes) and would only end with +11 (barely better than the +10 from a pure wizard)

    Unless you have a very high Wisdom, you're problem better off going for the +8/+4 (or +8/+8) elven chain
     
  4. Daryk

    Daryk Veteran Member

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    I routinely start my wizards as fighters and specialize when I take the first level of wizard (usually at 2nd level). What version were you using when you weren't able to do this?
     
  5. pblack476

    pblack476 Established Member

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    Exactly.

    But I too thought I couldn't be done. It's just that the FEATURE tab when you are leveling up does not come up automatically. You have to click on it to select specialization.


    12/8 Really just gives you 1d6 sneak attack and BAB. You also loose out on the best bard spell for this build witch is Greater Invisibility. You also loose Dimension Door. The char ceases to be a shadowdancer and becomes a gimped rogue.


    You are correct on the point you make about this being a slow starter. I am running the M1/R11/W8 version and I had to collect all the XP I could before the temple to make this a viable solo-ish char as I've related on my previous post. Playing him in a regular party is probably less than ideal since he'll only really start to be helpful by lvl 8 or so.

    But I do recommend the mirror image + displacement combo for any rogue out there. It can really turn him/her into a sort of tank or at least a very reliable distraction with high enough AC. Casting from scrolls also have the benefit of not generating AoO's (witch IMO is a bug) so you can always recast when the buffs run out.

    Actually. Making a Monk1/Rogue19 with UMD accompanied by a Wizard to write him all the scrolls can make a char that is superior in every aspect. Specially since those Illusions could be pre-cast on the rogue before battle by the wizard. But that defeats the purpose of having a self-sufficient char.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2014
  6. pblack476

    pblack476 Established Member

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    After beating Zuggtymoy with this char (althou my summoned balor slayed her before I could do anything) I can say it is really fun. And that got me to try and improve it a bit.

    You could build a strong Fighter4/Rogue16 with better BAB, more feats and the works and have a support magic user make him all the scrolls he needs as well, of course. But for this to work flawlessly you would need to take SKILL FOCUS UMD (+3 UMD) and MAGICAL AFFINITY (+2 UMD/+2SPCraft) to even your UMD level with current spell levels on you party. That and a +6 item for either WIS,INT or CHA, depending on who's making the scrolls.

    With the fighter levels you have more than enough feats to make this char a monster in either melee or archery (or some of both even), more BAB than you would get from a full rogue and you get 3 rogue unique feats. This guy is going to be in my next playthrough definitely...
     
  7. Kharagh

    Kharagh Established Member

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    I am currently playing a Fighter/Rogue (planned to be 4/16) with a Rogue/Wizard (planned to be 4/16). I think this is the most powerful duo possible (whirlwind attack at 6th level - which, by the way seems a little buggy - sometimes when I select whirlwind attack it just give me 10/10 attacks to deal out however I want). The only problems with this pair is that it relies entirely on potions for healing (until I get that periapt of wound closure); and I do miss barkskin.
     
  8. pblack476

    pblack476 Established Member

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    With high AC and mirror image/displacement (specially the former) I rarely had to heal in my game. You just don't get hit... at all. The ogre & bugbear fight in DL4 was done entirely with one rogue tossed in there with greater invisibility.

    I do recommend a good crafted weapon of course and one thing I did not have in my game was cleave/great cleave (But WW might be a good replacement). If this is going to be your melee'r, it is a good feat that I missed a lot and made fights longer than they had to be. But still... I did not get hit enough to be worrying about healing at all even without cleaving.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2014
  9. Kharagh

    Kharagh Established Member

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    Once you get high enough level for greater invisibility, yes, healing might not be too important. But on the way to 9th level (my wizard starts with rogue and takes another rogue level after every 4 wizard levels) and acquiring the necessary items for a really high AC (although Smiggy's elven chain is usually the first item that I acquire after Furnok's ring and Lareth's journal) healing can be useful.

    With greater invisibility, I actually assassinated all of the Hextor troops in the temple of elemental evil without any of them ever getting to attack (as long as anyone you attack while invisible is killed in that turn, no one else is brought into combat - so you can take them out one by one).
     
  10. pblack476

    pblack476 Established Member

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    GI is good, but if you haven't tried. Use Mirror image+displacement. It works amazingly well and it is very low level. I found my Rogue/Wizard one of the most self sufficient chars I ever created. Not the strongest... but self sufficient.
     
  11. pblack476

    pblack476 Established Member

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    I think I found a way to improve the combo further:


    rogue9/cleric of Farlanghn with the Travel and Luck domains and Necromancy focus


    The necro focus is to get the best use of Slay living, a powerful weapon.
    The travel domain is for Dimension Door
    The luck domain is for mislead (could also be trickery, but there is no trickery/travel deity)

    It builds slower but it gets more powerful than any other once you reach cleric lvl 11. It also has more HP and no armor restrictions. It has the means to heal from the start (I'd build Rogue1/Cleric 11 first, then go rogue for the rest). It can also turn the pesky undead that are immune to sneak attacks

    The downside is minimal after lvl 12. You lose Phantasmal Killer, which puts it above the Rogue/Bard in every way at that level, but you have to spend one feat in scribe scrolls to make it viable.

    You also get very nice bonuses from cleric buffs. I actually think this is a superior Rogue/Illusionist than the wizard version. It just takes more time to shape up like one.

    Another possibility is Augment summoning if you plan on soloing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2014
  12. Kharagh

    Kharagh Established Member

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    I'm not a fan of displacement. The duration is too short. I don't like having to cast spells at the start of each combat - I'd rather dive right into the killing. I do use blur a lot though. It's not as effective but the duration is much longer (10x as long as displacement) and it is lower level.
     
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