Can someone explain to me empower, maximize and heighten?

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by Speeder, Mar 22, 2014.

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  1. Speeder

    Speeder Member

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    I tried using all those three, and seemly they don't do much.

    The best I could do so far is use heighten on stinking cloud, I read on the forums that it make it more effective, but I dunno if there has been any real difference.

    Also I testd doing empower + maximize on magic missile, the result is 5 missiles that do 7 damage permanently, not that impressive :/

    Also I don't understood why they do 7 damage (instead of say, 8...)

    Also did a maximized melf acid arrow, seemly the only result is that it do double damage, but has the same length, and still suck.

    My dream would be a way to make extremely murderous fireballs, or to make cloudkill kill higher level people (or drain constitution faster).
     
  2. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Administrator

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  3. Speeder

    Speeder Member

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    The text there is already in-game.

    If I really understood it (and if ToEE engine was always perfect implementing SRD, and we know it is not), I would not have asked.
     
  4. short

    short Member

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    Well, it's hard to answer this without repeating what the SRD says.

    Heighten spell increases the spell level. For example, you can cast a 1st level spell as a 4th level spell. The most obvious benefit is a more difficult saving throw, but it's useful every time spell level is taken into account. If a monster is immune to spell levels 1-3, for example, you can bypass that by casting a lower level spell as a 4th level spell.

    Empower spell is simple. It just adds 50% to any "variable, numeric effects". Say your spell does 1d8 damage and you roll a 6. If it is empowered it does 9 damage instead (50% more). However, if the spell description says it does "4 damage" then it would be unaffected since "4 damage" is not a "variable" effect.

    Maximized is similar to empower, except instead of adding 50% you just pick the best possible roll. If a spell does 3d6 damage then the maximized version does 3*6=18 damage.

    A magic missile does 1d4+1 damage. Here 1d4 is a variable, numeric effect. If you use both empower and maximize then the calculation works like this. You "roll" 1d4, but since the spell is maximized you get the highest possible value, which is 4. Then you add 50% (2 more damage) on top of that since the spell is empowered and you end up with 6 damage. The +1 in the spell description is not a "variable" value, so it's unaffected by empower and maximize. In sum this means 7 damage per missile.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2014
  5. Speeder

    Speeder Member

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    ah, I see.

    Also interesting to know that heighten also affect spell level check, I did not considered that.

    There is any metamagic that affects non-rolled damage, or amount of targets?
     
  6. Pygmy

    Pygmy Established Member Supporter

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    Empower and maximise do precisely what they should do in ToEE according to 3.5 rules

    Neither should increase your number of magic missiles.

    The base damage per missile is 1D4+1

    The first line of the Empower Spell feat says:

    "All VARIABLE numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one half"

    Each 1D4+1 is empowered to 1D4+(1/2D4)+1 (1 not being a variable) i.e 3-7 hps

    Empowered maximised magic missiles are a dreadful way of regularly using 6th level wizard slots in P&P D&D 3.5.

    If you want your Melf's Acid Arrow spells to last longer use Extend Spell - only useful if you believe using Coup de Grace on a troll is cheating.

    Incidentally there is a major problem with the implementation of the Extend Spell feat but I don't suppose you'll complain about it -


    The next time you are playing a cleric or druid select Extend Spell as one of their feats, get them to memorise any extended spell and then convert it to cast a spontaneous cure/inflict or summons spell; Now closely examine the spell casting part of your character wheel
     
  7. Anthropoid

    Anthropoid Established Member

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    Awesome. Thanks for that perfect explanation.

    So basically at level 4, an Empowered magic missile is one of your better options, assuming your mage is an evoker type. A maximized magic missile would not be so good, as it would cause the thing to be a level 4 spell and inaccessible to the mage until he reached level 5, right?

    So . . . to cast an Empowered-Maximized Magic Missile . . . does it make the spell a level 5 spell (the higher of the two effects [Maximize & Empower]) and thus requiring the Mage to be Level 6 to cast it? Or doe it make the spell a level 6 spell (Level 1 spell +2 levels from Empower +3 levels from Maximize) thus, requiring the Mage to be Level 7 to cast it?
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2015
  8. Goshi3156

    Goshi3156 Dire Badger

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    An Empowered Maximized Magic Missile would be a 6th level spell. It takes both spell level increases from both metamagic feats.
     
  9. Dreamteam

    Dreamteam Member

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    Widen Spell works pretty well with Fireball, for a VERY large AoE explosion. Also Extend Spell on certain buffs that normally only last a few rounds is generally worth it imo.

    A secondary benefit of Heighten Spell, is that it stacks with itself. So for Sorcerers or Bards you could have a lvl 2, 3, 4 and 5 Ray of Enfeeblement, for example, without actually committing to casting any of them. Do this with your entire spell collection. It means even more casting options for each spell slot and adaptability for those two classes, since it's almost like being able to spontaneously cast any spell from any spell slot.
     
  10. Sitra Achara

    Sitra Achara Senior Member

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    If you use Extend Spell on buffs that last 1hr/level, you can quickly get buffs for "free", in the sense that you can then rest and memorize another spell without the extended spell expiring. Off the top of my head, this was quite useful with False Life for melee mage builds.
     
  11. Vexagar

    Vexagar Member

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    Very nice.


    Wow, thats really great! That much harder to roll a Wiz now though lol
     
  12. Anthropoid

    Anthropoid Established Member

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    One thing I noticed last night, and I do not know if this is WAD or not:

    I have a Fighter 2 / Wizard 2 toon who took Spell Focus (Evocation) and Evocation as his favored spell school (restricted Enchantment and Conjuration if memory serves, since those two schools were covered by the Bard and Cleric).

    He got access to a couple Level 2 spell slots at level 3 Wizard and also had the additional yellow-highlighted spell slot for Evocation spells. I tend to use my low level wizards like an Aircraft carrier: He is vulnerable if an enemy (like a submarine) gets close, but he packs a wallop at a distance. Not only that but, you know that in any engagement you will need to deal damage. Many other spells you have no idea if they will be useful or a complete waste in any given engagement. I find Magic Missile is the most consistently reliable low level Wizard spell for dealing damage per second, so I generally fill up all those Level 1 slots with Magic Missile, and other spells that I might find occasion to use, I'll just scribe a couple scrolls.

    I made a mistake and didn't choose Scorching Ray as a Level 2 spell so he could have something useful in that Evocation-bonus slot at level 2, but then I realized:

    I could put Magic Missile (not a meta-magic modified one, just plain Magic Missile) a Level 1 spel, into that Bonus Evcation Level 2 slot, giving me a grand total of three spells in Level two slots (web, glitterdust and Magic Missile) and I think five in the Level 1 slots (all Magic Missile).
     
  13. Dreamteam

    Dreamteam Member

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    Magic Missile just doesn't cut it when you are facing 4 Bugbear Sergeants with 65 hp each. Charm Person is #1 most useful arcane spell at first level in ToEE. One effective strategy is to find yourself some Knolls or Bugbears, charm as many as you can, then go hunting... :thumbsup:

    Having three of four Bugbear monster bait.. er.. I mean body guards... stand at the front of the party is a good way to see the sights of ToEE and live to talk about it.

    Scribe scrolls. Lots and lots of Charm Person scrolls... :yes:
     
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