Cure of Amii help

[younes]

Hi,
I cannot find the swamp lotus to cure Amii. I've looked thoroughly in the swampy areas of the game (Moathouse and Nulb) but I just cannot find it!. And after a while I entered Hommlet, and the logbook declared the Amii quest to be botched! Is there a timer on the quest?

Please help.
-Younes

[krunch]

Yes, there is a timer on the quest. And no, you will not always find it - it is random map dependent. It is intended to be that way.

[Fernando]

Here (http://www.co8.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3411%5BU)'s a link that will be useful, I believe.

[younes]

Damn,
I must have missed it then. I already had 2 random encounters in a yellowish murky swamp. But I'm pretty sure I checked the bodies, and I always use the TAB to reveal clickable scenery elements...
Well, maybe next time around!
Thanks

[krunch]

hint - Next time, search the game maps more closely. And remember, like I said before, it will not always be generated.

[joshychrist]

well i have the swamp lotus myself and it isnt botched in my quest log

yet i cannot figure out what to do next

ive talked to jaroo and he gives no hints, ive went to the house where i got the quest and i just cannot seem to figure out what to do to complete it

[GuardianAngel82]

Give the swamp lotus to the person doing the talking.

[Thurstrum]

It makes no sense that Amii can't be cured with some combination of remove disease, neutralize poison or heal, which Jaroo could whip up whenever he wants. Dumb quest imo.

[Ausdoerrt]

That is why Amii quest has been removed iirc...

[Gaear]

No, it hasn't been removed. Jaroo explains quite clearly:

I wish it were so. If a mere Healing spell would have cured her ailment then I would have healed her long ago. Believe me, I have tried everything within my power.

I once read about a healing powder that can be made from Swamp Lotus. I believe that this powder will heal her.

Hence, he's trying to do precisely what you're suggesting he should be able to do - cure her by acquiring the necessary means.

Why do you believe that Jaroo's Druid skills, within the confines of a 'combination' of remove disease, neutralize poison or heal, would be sufficient to cure all possible illnesses? Does it state that in the SRD or the module somewhere?

[Thurstrum]

The in game spell descriptions for remove disease and neutralize poison do include a clause that some special exceptions may exist but heal doesn't and I really don't think it makes any sense for her to be immune to the heal spell just because you really want another fetch quest in the game. I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that this was part of why the quest wasn't implemented in the first place.

Also, the in game description for neutralize poison claims that it protects from future poisoning for some undisclosed duration. This is either bugged or unimplemented as the hag poisoned my immunized barbarian without any trouble.

[Gaear]

The in game spell descriptions for remove disease and neutralize poison do include a clause that some special exceptions may exist but heal doesn't and I really don't think it makes any sense for her to be immune to the heal spell just because you really want another fetch quest in the game. I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that this was part of why the quest wasn't implemented in the first place.
That's Co8 material, not deactivated vanilla. Livonya was the author.

Does the Heal spell really claim to be able to cure absolutely any ailment? I hope not ... that would be rather foolish if it did, imo.

The larger question here of course is are authors of new content entitled to use creative license to further a story/quest/adventure. I think they are, as long as they're not introducing space ships or other silliness like that. The notion that an unusual illness exists that can't be cured by a heal spell doesn't seem too outlandish to me.

[MonkeyLancer]

I agree completely I think it makes for a far more interesting world if there are some things beyond the reach of magic.

Although a bit off topic, I've wondered how incredible the sensation it would be to be instantly healed upon drinking a healing potion, especially if badly injured. So I imagine if like any "feel good" drug they would be addictive and hence people would drink them even if they didn't need it.

[Thurstrum]

Well, heal is a powerful spell granted by gods to their faithful in order to heal people. Why would there be holes in it, especially for illnesses picked up by peasant villagers in day to day living?

Anyway, it wasn't my intention to be rubbishing the people putting time in to mod the game, I was just offering what I thought was constructive criticism.

[Gaear]

Well, heal is a powerful spell granted by gods to their faithful in order to heal people. Why would there be holes in it, especially for illnesses picked up by peasant villagers in day to day living?
So that we can have a new quest that's something other than standard fedex fare. ;)

Anyway, it wasn't my intention to be rubbishing the people putting time in to mod the game, I was just offering what I thought was constructive criticism.
No worries, but we can debate these criticisms in kind, right?

[Thurstrum]

:shrug:

I think it's much more interesting to explore the consequences of living in a world of gods and magic, where people can be resurrected and healed at will, than to just kind of lazily (a bit harsh I know) ignore them for plot convenience. If the village has an experienced druid and a cleric capable of curing disease and making scrolls of heal then the village should be healthy for the most part. This also applies to the healing Bing quest. Why won't Terjon help Bing when he has scrolls and potions of heal just sitting there for anyone to take? Is taking the scrolls supposed to be illegal? If it is then why is there no penalty for paladins who take them? If not then there is no reason for Terjon not to have used them, especially if he's interested in converting the leatherworker family.

[Gaear]

Fair points, although I think the potion and scroll of Heal were kind of shoehorned in there to allow you to address the Bing thing specifically. Heal would not normally be able to be cast by level 10 characters. I don't know if Terjon and Jaroo, according to the module, would have been of sufficient level to cast/scribe/brew heal spells either.

Hommlet and much of the game overall are extremely rough around the edges, as evidenced by your examples of scrolls lying around waiting to be stolen without repercussions, class-related and otherwise. Etc. While it would be nice to have all that stuff made more refined, Co8 has generally taken a hands-off approach to it. One player's boon is another player's bane, basically.

[Thurstrum]

How hard would it be to add a diplomacy check to Terjon to gain permission to take the scrolls as part of the help Bing quest and a fallen-paladin check to the bookcase should you take them without permission?

Just have Terjon say he had hoped to resolve the issue without using the scrolls since they are expensive and the church has a limited supply since they can't produce them themselves. He's LN (?) so this isn't particularly out of character but at the same time it would be reasonable to convince him to allow their use since the church would gain more followers and helping Bing would improve the churches standing in the community.

[GuardianAngel82]

They would be used for healing, as was intended. It is wrong to decide which of the righteous does get healed and and who doesn't.

[wizgeorge]

Most of the people in Hommlet are relatively poor. A 1000GP for raise dead or heal is out of bounds for most people. The bookcase scrolls are there to advance the quests and help the party survive. The moathouse would be tougher except you can rest in the spider tower. The scrolls have probably saved a lot of characters over time. Low AC characters take a lot of damage and a party needs all the healing they can get. Hence all the potions from the bugbears.

[Ausdoerrt]

Interestingly, I usually end the game without using any of the church scrolls, and with somewhere around 30-40 potions of light healing if I even bother to pick them up ;)

Although I agree, that was probably the intention. Still, it's not like you can't go back to the Hommlett inn and "rest until healed". Potions are only really necessary in battle if you run out of healing spells, and it's still not the priority since the AoO damage your fighter would get would be probably greater than what he manages to heal.

[GuardianAngel82]

I use the light heals to have my non-healers stop someone from bleeding to death. The problem is when the character is accidently brought back to consciousness. When their next turn comes, they WILL die for certain.

[maalri]

I use the light heals to have my non-healers stop someone from bleeding to death. The problem is when the character is accidently brought back to consciousness. When their next turn comes, they WILL die for certain.

Cure minor would work best for this- only 1hp restored, but stabilizes the injured.

[GuardianAngel82]

Cure minor does work better.

I would use a non-healer because they were available, in a good position or the person who was down was going to bleed to death in the next round.

[maalri]

I would also like to vote my approval of this challenging Quest line.

It challenges you with a timeline, for one. It requires a random event, so you can't "Avoid" Encounters simply because you have a high Survival or Listen or Spot score combo. And you DO get to be the Hero on your merits and not an all inclusive spell, regardless of how powerful it is. Sort of like having to Fight the Balor to the end, even thought we wish there was one all inclusive spell that could just wipe him. I mean Disentegrate COULD do it, if it could get through his insanely high SR, and he failed his save, but what are the odds...

Here is ONE possible answer as to why a Heal spell could not cure little Amii's ailment:

All Gods have thier specific Areas of Concern, over which they have complete dominion, right? Well, perhaps Vecna (I think Vecna is the god of Disease on Greyhawk) decided there would be at least ONE (non-magical) disease that all the other Gods just couldn't go "Poof" your cured- you don't have to worry aobut Ol' Vecna now, just donate to Us.

Vecna certainly would be in His right to impose such a restriction on a disease or two, then make it semi-prevalnt to remind the general populace that He is a force to be reckoned with.

[Thurstrum]

I understand the gameplay reasons for having the scrolls and potions there, but I would just prefer if they were also coherent for the game world.

I remember my first attempt at a play through years ago and I had a paladin in my party. I could never get anywhere in the Bing quest because it never even crossed my mind that I was supposed to just take thousands of gold coins worth of scrolls from the temple. It just doesn't make any sense that the temple wouldn't have used them themself and that they are ok with you just taking them.

[Gaear]

Bear in mind that Terjon's supposed to be kind of an a-hole, so he wouldn't likely allow you to use the potion/scroll out of some sense of charity. He'd be more likely to say something like "Yes, I agree that Bing should be healed, and you can help to do this by donating 1000 gp to the temple for use of the necessary potion. Otherwise, sorry, but ."

Also, is it clear that the party is really stealing those items? It seems like it to me, but it's not like there's a sign on the bookshelf saying [I]Top secret valuable magic items here - do not touch! It would be kind of crappy, coming from the perspective of a first-time player, to discover the stuff there, have a look to see what it was, and then get smacked with the fallen Paladin hammer. Although there's a difference between looking and taking. But do you really know it's hands-off? The fact that no one objects (as obviously dodgy in implementation that fact is) could be construed as tacit permission. :shrug:

[Necroticpus]

I could never get anywhere in the Bing quest because it never even crossed my mind that I was supposed to just take thousands of gold coins worth of scrolls from the temple. It just doesn't make any sense that the temple wouldn't have used them themself and that they are ok with you just taking them.

Well, consider the huge and opulent cathedral St. Cuthbert of the diamond studded and platinum encrusted Cudgel owns. They don't look like they are hurting, cashflow-wise. I believe you can draw a parallel between Grayhawk and our world in this case. St. Cuthbert is a biggie in Grayhawk much like "God" is here. Terjon is the equivalent of Billy Grahm Sr. They have squillions of worshippers everywhere that donate what they can, sometimes more, and it all gets funnelled to one place, Terjon (Billy Grahm). They accept jewelry, cash, silver/gold fillings and caps and credit cards.

Hell, he even condescends to give you a break on your healing by only charging you like what, 1800 gold or something, for raising someone who helped him, back from the dead? He don't care about anyone but St. Cuthbert, who apparently needs all these material things because he's a loving God.

My conscience is clear by taking whatever petty scrolls and potions they have lying around. It's the least they can do. They should consider themselves lucky I don't help myself to the silver candelabras also.

*edit*
Actually, after thinking about it, the St. Cuthbert church probably has an obscene building in Grayhawk, the capital, along with a 20-something level high cleric who speaks for Cuthbert. Terjon is just a small fry, skimming his 10% off the top before sending the lion's share onto Grayhawk.

[GuardianAngel82]

Perhaps we were meant to role-play it. Is there anything in the module about this?

[wizgeorge]

The scrolls and other things are in the pnp module, but I discovered them by accident in ToEE. Terjon was a 6th level cleric in pnp but has been massively upgraded in ToEE so he can do heal and raise dead. The whole Terjon, church thing is bogus as hell anyway. A small, remote village like Hommlet wouldn't have a church like that in the first place. Raise dead shouldn't be in the game. Heal is out of place and Bing is a simpleton with no name. The Troika version is dramatically different from the pnp module. What you see is what you get. Try the vanilla original with atari patch 2 and recruit Elmo and see what you get.

[GuardianAngel82]

Played patch 2 Vanilla for 2 or 3 years before finding Co8. ;)

[maalri]

Played patch 2 Vanilla for 2 or 3 years before finding Co8. ;)

How was it?

[Ausdoerrt]

Played patch 2 Vanilla for 2 or 3 years before finding Co8. ;)

Same here. The poorly translated Russian version, too. :yes:

Was difficult and frustrating as hell, but fun as well. Then I got Co8 only to find out that "Craft Magic Arms and Armour" doesn't cause a consistent CTD anymore! Boy, was I excited :dribble:

[Hugh Manetee]

In England and rural Quebec You do get huge churches in the middle of nowhere.
Some support a large surrounding area. Some where built when the area was more prosperous. In one village of about 800 people there are two churches about 100 yards apart.
One on either side of a parish boundary. If you are guarenteed 10% of everybody's gross
over time you are creaming it in.

[wizgeorge]

No doubt the St.Cuthbert church is very rich and has powerful supporters for both Terjon and Burne. The church in Hommlet is realtively new and Terjon was sent there to be canon when Y'Dey was sent on her spy mission. Terjon is not happy as he had a bigger church before and feels demoted. Never deal with him after clear the moathouse. Calmert pays good prices for stuff, tho. The loot and reward for his artifact pendant isn't that great, but I guess it might be worth it. I just get the moathouse quest then use the console to levelup a few times and go from there.

[GuardianAngel82]

How was it?

D&D, turned-based like tabletop and almost 3.5. Essentially a fantasy tactical wargame. But I think what got me was the artwork.

Co8 was mainly the satisfaction of more and slightly different.

[wizgeorge]

Co8 mod 3.0.4 with humble_npc and maxhp is the closet thing to a corrected, bug-fixed vanilla game. Plays well and no added content. I think it should be the standard vanilla original. It's basically original, but without the looting and npc management problems. Probably how the game should have been when first released, except for maxhp.

[Thorsson]

Why does maxhp make things better?

[General Ghoul]

Why does maxhp make things better?

Less resting.

[wizgeorge]

The idea for maxhp is the random number generator ToEE uses is known to be very unkind with hp at levelup time. The difference is a 10th level fighter with a good constitution would have 100+hp vs a whole lot less otherwise. The higher the hp the more damage you can endure and stay in a fight longer. You'll win fights that you might otherwise lose.

[GuardianAngel82]

You know? If we can do max hp. We could probably do half hp (+ pluses). A 10 would be 5, 8 would be 4, and so forth.

I wonder if Thorsson was referring to max NPC hit points.

[GuardianAngel82]

Is this thread drifting? No wonder we can't find old posts. ;)

[Necroticpus]

Amii is an exciting topic. There's a minimum of at least 4 more pages coming about her and her little quirks/defects of character.

[Shiningted]

Amii's problem was not enough HP. Hence the subtle divergence in the thread.

I find you just plain need max HP to level this out: if I get a 1 on a level-up (and forget to reload ;)) then I use max the next couple of times.

Personally I tihnk D&D should be totally different in this regard. Rather than 1-8, 1-12, 1-20, I would far prefer to see d4+4, d6+6, d12+8 etc. Rolling a 1 on a hit die, or a CLW in combat, or whatever, is just craptacular, and I wouldn't wish it on the monsters either (and decent monsters / NPCs who have set HP in hit points in modules never do anyway - they are always above the curve).

Just my $0.02.

[Necroticpus]

As long as the monsters get max hp or double max, that's perfect. They're too wimpy as it is, even with a 25 point buy giving each character 4 14's and 2 8's.

[wizgeorge]

The DM we had 30 years ago had a deal where you got at least 70% of your hit points at levelup and you got a roll. If it was better, you got to keep it. I always used it. The twister is so unkind in that department.

[GuardianAngel82]

This issue could be resolved by simply adding a set number of points, or a set minimum (d10 becomes 6 + d4), at each level up.

When did D&D stop basing exp point awards for monsters, at least paritally, on the creature's rolled number of hit points? I'd max npc hit points all the time if ToEE were that way.

[Thorsson]

Maxhp for characters makes the game easier. I agree that the RNG gives you some bad runs. Oddly enough so do dice. But I have no problem with maxhp if the monsters get it too (and no extra XP).

[Thurstrum]

I've always prefered systems where hp change based on stats rather than level. Doesn't matter how good a fighter is, a sword to the torso is bad news and being outnumbered 2 or 3 to 1 is a serious threat no matter the opponents. Characters having 20 and 30 times the hp of other people and needing to be hit dozens of times is way too abstract.