Dwarf Paladins and drinking habits

[krunch]

Does anyone know the written official word from an original module (or maybe even an older issue of the Dragon Magazine or the Dungeon Magazine) as to what drinking habits Moradin will allow or prefer for his Dwarf Paladins?

[Lord_Spike]

:imwithstu

Yeah...they can only drink "small" beer.

[wizgeorge]

I don't know about dwarves but my Egyptian paladin of Ra drank beer and wine. A good buzz and celebration was part of Egyptian culture, so not a problem. The dwarves are fond of the mead/ale so not a problem. Violent, obnoxious drunkeness would be a problem.

[Drew]

I fail to see why drinking or getting drunk would cause a Paladin to fall. It isn't unlawful....and it isn't evil......so the Paladin's ethos is never broken.

[Ugignadl]

Is is corrupting your body with foul impure substances. If crack existed in DnD paladins wouldn't be allowed to do that either.

MY BODY IS A TEMPLE!! (what smiley to use for that??)

[Cujo]

what about owl shit? is that corrupting your body with foul impure substances?

[Lord_Spike]

I fail to see why drinking or getting drunk would cause a Paladin to fall. It isn't unlawful....and it isn't evil......so the Paladin's ethos is never broken.

This goes against the laws of nature, and in almost everyplace you go, against the laws of man. Get drunk in Greyhawk, and see if you don't get the watch summoned on your ass. Especially if it leads to other bad behavior. It is a chaotic act that gives over control of oneself to the whims of one's animal instincts. You can't control yourself if you are drunk. Or high. And, it brings discredit on the deity you serve, NO MATTER WHICH ONE IT IS, if you do not act in accordance with discipline, self-restraint, and self control. I don't care what culture it is...getting drunk = loss of control. Drinking may be tolerated, but the key is remembering that drinking is not the same as getting drunk.

[Drew]

I'm not sure that I'm willing to buy the "drinking is a chaotic act" thing. We also aren't talking about getting drunk and disorderly. We're talking about getting drunk and then, in all likelihood, going to bed. Even if drinking to intoxication were reason enough for a Paladin to fall, it still makes no sense that a Paladin would fall because one of his companions decided to enter a drinking contest.

[Lord_Spike]

I'm not sure that I'm willing to buy the "drinking is a chaotic act" thing. We also aren't talking about getting drunk and disorderly. We're talking about getting drunk and then, in all likelihood, going to bed. Even if drinking to intoxication were reason enough for a Paladin to fall, it still makes no sense that a Paladin would fall because one of his companions decided to enter a drinking contest.


Likelihood isn't certainty. And, we are talking about drinking to intoxication, where people definetly lose control of their ability to act normally due to impairment. Both due to loss of inhibitions as well as motor skills. In the case where Sir Teatotaller has one too many and doesn't make it into bed without pissing himself, or throwing up, or groping the serving wench, or soiling his armor, or parking his horse in the wrong stall, it is these subsequent acts on which he will be judged; both by his deity & by those who see him making a drunken fool of himself. Regardless of whether his conduct involves crossing swords with the local militia, or punching out the barkeep or not. And, he should not have companions who do this either, because his reputation is also made by whom he is known to associate himself. He can't go running around with rowdy, drunken fools. The paladin who has a two beers in the bar before turning in or wine with dinner has nothing to fear by way of having to make atonement. Buy it or not, drinking to intoxication is not an act consistent with lawful conduct; it leads to a loss of control and is therefore chaotic as defined by every sense of the word.

[krunch]

IMO - The event in Hommlet at the Welcome Wench Inn is a who can drink the most drinking contest, not just have a beer or two - as in "drink until you drop", meaning pass out. At some point, the participating characters lose control and pass out. That is, unless a character wins and, thus, obtains a reputation as king of power drinkers. Paladins would disdain both. Further, a Paladin would not approve of [not esteem and not validate] characters in the same adventuring fellowship who desire and promote that kind of lifestyle. Paladins are pious zealots who see themselves above that mentality and would, at least, distance themselves away from that kind of activity if not entirely leave an adventuring fellowship.
* Dwarven Paladins may be the exception who might have a beer or two, sit back and applaud others who participate in an event like the drinking contest while not participating in the event themselves.

[Ugignadl]

what about owl shit? is that corrupting your body with foul impure substances?

You eat owl shit???

:chew: :chew: :chew:

[Cujo]

no - but if a paladin was to drink a potion of owls wisdom

[Drew]

Last I checked, a Paladin only controls himself. Making him fall because the good aligned bard in his traveling comany decides to enter a legal drinking contest is stupid. The Paladin can't force his travel companions to do whatever he wants them to do and a Paladin would not be required to leave the company of a party who enters a drinking contest. They broke no laws, and they did nothing evil. And the Paladin is not their babysitter.

[moralgay]

Indeed. A Paladin upholds laws for the sake of upholding good, or benefit for others vs. harming others, and takes military action to protect and not for sake of harming or conquering. He cannot uphold evil laws and remain a paladin and if he enforces his will on everyone for its own sake, pride or selfishness, and not to benefit or protect others, he is being a dictator, taking away free will, and is acting as Lawful Neutal or Lawful Evil vs. Lawful Good.

[Cujo]

He cannot uphold evil laws and remain a paladinthats where things get a bit suspect, does he uphold the laws of the land or his god, what exactly is an evil law. would a paladin fall from preventing a willing human sacrifice in a land with customs different from his own. would he fall for eating his vanquished foe in a culture that demanded that he do so in order to bring honour to his foe and himself. when he went to war to regain the honour of his ancestors/family/tribe what would happen if he failed to kill the first person he met on his geas, be they friend or foe, and not offer then to the god of war as required.

[moralgay]

Very nice questions! ;)
Bit of clarification tho, when you judge a character in Dungeons and Dragons as Lawful or Chaotic, there is some debate, but as a GM I believe it's much simplier when classifying a character as one or the other as whether they follow a strict code of ethics (Lawful) or are more implusive and aren't restrained by any code of behavior but by their emotions. Now both the code of ethics or emotions/impluses can be compassionate and beneficial (good) or indifferent/selfish (neutral) or destructive/malicious (evil). That's easier because Lawful Good/Neutral/Evil characters will not necessarily follow all laws of all lands (they contradict!) or "gods". But certainly you would expect the "god" a character follows would have the same or similar alignment and thus their personal laws would coincide with their entity's.

And this is why Paladins don't tend to make very good politicians. No matter what culture or land he goes into or deals with, he might be obliged to respect others but he cannot compromise his code of ethics and what compassion would have him do without falling. And that makes for very difficult situations where to keep true to his heart/god he has to stand firm and go against even societial laws/customs where they differ with his own personal and divine laws. Politicians tend to have to compromise with their own people, other countries and their laws and customs to some degree. Paladins usually fall when some strict and blind adherence to law overrides compassion. The rule of thumb for Paladins is that it has to obey compassion first, law second. Dark knights, hate first, chaos/impluse 2nd. More difficult that one might believe to always be hateful and not let a single opportunity for evil/harm willingly slip by and vice versa.

[Lord_Spike]

Last I checked, a Paladin only controls himself. Making him fall because the good aligned bard in his traveling comany decides to enter a legal drinking contest is stupid. The Paladin can't force his travel companions to do whatever he wants them to do and a Paladin would not be required to leave the company of a party who enters a drinking contest. They broke no laws, and they did nothing evil. And the Paladin is not their babysitter.

It's the chaotic conduct that would be disapproved of. He might not leave immediately, but if the conduct continued, his reputation would suffer from their bad behavior. He would not baby sit them, but after enough preaching, would be compelled to show his disapproval more openly...by leaving the group.

[Drew]

It's the chaotic conduct that would be disapproved of. He might not leave immediately, but if the conduct continued, his reputation would suffer from their bad behavior. He would not baby sit them, but after enough preaching, would be compelled to show his disapproval more openly...by leaving the group.Which means his group entering into a single drinking contest would not make him fall.

[jeffh]

thats where things get a bit suspect, does he uphold the laws of the land or his god, what exactly is an evil law.

"Lawful" in D&D does not mean, and never has meant, "obeys laws".

[krunch]

IMO - Here is what I have always understood about alignment in D&D.

Lawful means a character upholds and keeps their word to the exact letter of every word concerning what they say or write and they will do in their actions; they follow laws to every letter of the law, as in the exact detail of what the law defines and allows. Being lawful is adhering to and keeping every detail in what was spoken or written or agreed in ones actions and deeds. The path one takes to arrive at the end result is equally as important as the end result. Being lawful does not tolerate loose observation of laws.

Chaotic means a character upholds and keeps their word to what was specifically intended in what they say or write and they will do in their actions; they follow laws to the spirit of what was intended in every law. Being chaotic is adhering to and keeping intent toward a particular final outcome of what was spoken or written or agreed in ones actions and deeds. Achieving the specific intended end result has ultimate importance; the path to obtaining the end result could be unimportant when compared to obtaining the intended end result. Being chaotic does tolerate loose observation of laws.

****************************************

[EDIT] A good example would be driving or exceeding a posted speed limit. Say for example, the police who enforce the speed limit normally allow traffic to drive 10 miles per hour over the speed limit. I don't think you can assign good or evil to observing and driving the speed limit, except in the case of road rage.

Lawful: Someone who is lawful will exceed the posted speed limit when the flow of traffic dictates it is needed and it is the only way to drive safely. Exceeding the speed limit is how fast everyone else is driving, the police allow it and driving slower than everyone else will cause a car wreck.

Chaotic: Someone who is chaotic will be one of the drivers who cause the flow of traffic to be whatever limit the police will allow beyond the speed limit.

[Lord_Spike]

Which means his group entering into a single drinking contest would not make him fall.

That's not what I said. It is all dependant on just how bad the participants acted as a result of their intoxication. He'd either leave or fall if their conduct warranted his disapproval. He associates himself with bad behavior by hanging out with them; and he'll suffer from his associations. This game has no real choice but to make it happen the way it does. And we all know the shortcomings of this game. A real DM would let the paladin hang himself & then require atomement. This game has no real DM, and has pre-set events (programming) which is a poor substitute.

[Heavydan85]

This goes against the laws of nature, and in almost everyplace you go, against the laws of man. Get drunk in Greyhawk, and see if you don't get the watch summoned on your ass. Especially if it leads to other bad behavior. It is a chaotic act that gives over control of oneself to the whims of one's animal instincts. You can't control yourself if you are drunk. Or high. And, it brings discredit on the deity you serve, NO MATTER WHICH ONE IT IS, if you do not act in accordance with discipline, self-restraint, and self control. I don't care what culture it is...getting drunk = loss of control. Drinking may be tolerated, but the key is remembering that drinking is not the same as getting drunk.
I always know exactly what I am doing when drunk...like friday when I went to denny's at 4am after about 15-16 beers. I swear that was planned out.

[Drew]

A Paladin does not have to atone for the actions of people he cannot control. Unless his allies went and did something illegal or evil after their drinking contest, the Paladin would have no reason to leave them, although he may express his disaproval. If entering the occasional (legal)drinking contest (without breaking any other laws) is the only "bad" thing his allies are doing, the Paladin, while he may be a little annoyed, wouldn't really have any reason to leave the group over it.

[moralgay]

Indeed. Turn the question on its head. Similarly a Blackguard would not fall (out of favor) by one of his party members deciding NOT to join in his chaotic drinking spree and orgy... their decision would not make him fall but it would affect his next actions by raising a chance to be just as evil to them, such as forcing them against their will or letting them go temporarily for purpose of greater sadism by lulling them into false sense of security to heighen the horror and shock of suddenly raping them in the night, lest he fall for being too merciful.

[krunch]

I don't believe anyone is saying that all Paladins must leave an adventuring party over that kind of event happening one time. Although, one could depending on the deity, maybe St. Cuthbert. I believe what is generally being stated is most Paladins in D&D would prefer not to be in the same room when the event is taking place because they find it very distasteful and discomforting. And, if that kind of behavior is continued on a regular basis by one or more characters in their party, a Paladin would definitely at some interval leave an adverturing party to find some other adventuring party more suitable for him or her to pursue their goals. A Paladin would not want to associate himself or herself for any length of time with one or more drunkards.

[Allyx]

Did anyone else consider that Troika may have just decided that the drinking contest goes against the paladin's code of conduct, and actually has nothing to do with alignment whatsoever?

[Kalshane]

Did anyone else consider that Troika may have just decided that the drinking contest goes against the paladin's code of conduct, and actually has nothing to do with alignment whatsoever

Well this whole debate started because some (myself included) find it unfair for a paladin to fall because someone other than the paladin engaged in a drinking constest.

[krunch]

The game designers have the Paladin class fall for a reason. I believe you, allyx, and rufnredde are both correct concerning the falling of a Paladin in the computer game. I said my final thoughts on the subject of the lawful goodness of Paladins with respect to drunkeness in my previous post.

[EDIT] And, I did not get a reply to the original question in the thread. It's probably not written in black & white on paper anywhere in an official book.

[Lord_Spike]

A Paladin does not have to atone for the actions of people he cannot control.

Again, your words are not the same as mine. The paladin would be atoning for his failure to dis-associate himself with behavior that brought discredit upon himself and/or the deity he serves. His actions (or more precisely, failure to act), not the actions of his companions.

This is why these things drag on ad infinitum; no one is ever going to convince anyone else that their point of view isn't correct. It's plain that Troika thought this was a correct course of action; but we certainly don't all agree with all the things they've done. But guilt by association is accepted as a means of judgement in society and under the law...the axiom "the hand of one is the hand of all" still applies. I agree the implementation could have been better; but it's what we have.

[Drew]

I don't think the Paladin would have to disassociate himself from them at all. (On the other hand, I also don't think a Paladin would fall if he entered the contest, himself) And you're right.....we'll have to agree to disagree.

[wizgeorge]

If a Paladin is going to be a intergal part of the game (future mods), then a decision has to be made. Are they holy-roller, do-gooders who can do no wrong? Is their presence so strong that associates will behave in a like manner? If the Paladin said, If you people are going behave like this, I'm leaving, then what? No drinking contest? Eactly how a Paladin is going to interact is up to question. If I were a modder, I wouldn't this with a 10ft pole.

[Lord_Spike]

So...it's well known that the vast majority of people hate the drinking contest making a Paladin fall. This is in no small part due to it being such a surprise when it happens. Troika intended it this way for some reason, perhaps because of the very limited role playing aspects of their game (...or perhaps as a cheap substitiute). Whatever the reason, we know it's stuck in the craw of many, and may be worthy of some type of attempt at a fix; 'cause let's face it...nothing satisfies everyone. Can someone write a dialogue for there being a paladin in the group, and at least offering the option of that character saying something about it as a warning of their fall if they become involved? At least it won't be a surprise if they get mixed up in it and lose their status.

Thoughts...suggestions?

[Drew]

I think having you otherwise silent player-created paladin speak up might be pushing it a bit in the immersion department. What if we put the warning in the dialogue right at the beginning of the drinking contest.....you know.....have the guy running the contest refuse to let you participate if there's a Paladin in the group.

[Cujo]

I like that idea, sorry sir/mam' your paladin tells me its againist his code of conduct for him/her to associate with people involved in this sort of behavour so I cacn't let you partisapate.


well if it was possable to script, maybe getting the butcher of hommlet rep would cause your paladin to fall as an alternative.

[Shiningted]

If a Paladin is going to be a intergal part of the game (future mods), then a decision has to be made.For the record (though this has been discussed before) in KotB various actions will advance a Paladin slowly toward fallage (or quickly, depending on the act - frankly i think just up n murdering a shopkeeper would do it but thats just me) and not just leap on you - you have to earn it. Ditto for clerics and droids, they too will fall if straying from their diety's alignment. The specific karmic repercussions will be up to the individual modders, as will the behaviour of Paladin NPCs. Some can be self-righteous do-gooders, some can be saints, some can be complicated, its up to how people want to make them.

Ok, back to discussing ToEE.
well if it was possable to script, maybe getting the butcher of hommlet rep would cause your paladin to fall as an alternative.Doesn't it? I tried adding a rep in KotB the other day (number 6 or something, the one you get for making beggars in ToEE) and it automatically falled my paladin.

[Cujo]

to be honest, it never occured to me to actually kill hommlet off with a paladin in the party - I'm more of a NE type of person, smile to your face and poison your well the day I leave town.

[Kalshane]

Ditto for clerics and droids, they too will fall if straying from their diety's alignment.

These are not the droids you're looking for.

More seriously, I don't think druids can actually fall. Their powers come from nature, not a deity, even if they worship one. I suppose a druid could fall if they starting pointlessly lighting trees on fire and clubbing baby seals or something.

[Lord_Spike]

These are not the droids you're looking for...

Roofles!:D

I suppose a druid could fall if they starting pointlessly lighting trees on fire and clubbing baby seals or something.

I'm sure you meant this to refer to BOTH acts, right? I mean, clubbing baby seals can have a point sometimes, and wouldn't automatically be offensive to nature...

[moralgay]

True, you kill alot of Wildlife in TOEE :P

[Kalshane]

I'm sure you meant this to refer to BOTH acts, right? I mean, clubbing baby seals can have a point sometimes, and wouldn't automatically be offensive to nature...

Yes. Basically I was just saying that druids don't care about alignment issues. The only thing that would sever a druids connection to nature was if he started randomly or systematically destroying plant and animal life, or otherwise turning his back in his gifts.

A druid killing to eat, for shelter or to defend himself would be fine. Burning down a forest or using squirrels for target practice with his Produce Flame would not.

[Allyx]

Natural animals found in random encounters can simply be avoided, planned encounters can be avoided (Hide from Animals), have thier reactions to the PC's adjusted (Calm Animals), befriended (Charm Animal) at first level for a druid. getting around hostile natural animals without killing them IS possible, and should reinforce a druids faith, however killing natural animals should put the druids faith in question.

[moralgay]

Hmm... what about the Funguses / Plants? Failing your roll?
Also what about your other party members even if you can?

Life and death are part of the nature. Animals kill, murder, protect and nuture. So I'm not sure killing is an issue to a Druid (unless Good). Nature has order and also seems to behave randomly, I think the only ethos that would matter to a Druid is balance and some kind of protection of nature, but not necessarily any individual animal/plant/bacteria/disease life or behaving on a whim/randomly. But definitely things that violate nature (not Greek nature philosophy or Roman Catholic derivative but not happening in Nature) such as perhaps Undeath.

[Shiningted]

I suppose a druid could fall if they starting pointlessly lighting trees on fire and clubbing baby seals or something.KotB quests 11 and 12. Reminds me of a former g/f who was always whining how I never bought her presents, never took her anywhere etc, and demanded a fur coat and a night out.

So I took her out clubbing...

Anyways, Druids in KotB will be in danger of falling if they hunt animals for pelts, kill animals for no good reason (and there will certainly be chances to do that, indeed in some senses it will be encouraged), violate sacred grove areas (also an option) and basically things based on nature, not 'balance-alignment' nonsense.

[Cujo]

Altho IIRC there is some kind of anti-druid, who gets their power from destroying nature. I'm pretty sure it's in one of the books.

[Shiningted]

Old Growth Logger - +2 vs old, ancient and venerable animals. Takes double damage from the Legal Injunction spell.

[moralgay]

KotB quests 11 and 12. Reminds me of a former g/f who was always whining how I never bought her presents, never took her anywhere etc, and demanded a fur coat and a night out.

So I took her out clubbing...


Nice one :thumbsup:

Anyways, Druids in KotB will be in danger of falling if they hunt animals for pelts, kill animals for no good reason (and there will certainly be chances to do that, indeed in some senses it will be encouraged)...

I certainly don't believe in the cruelty of killing animals just for their pelts either and for a Druid to fall for doing so I'm all in favor of EXCEPT when its for survival needs, which is natural, or when that is part of hunting the animal for food. In some cultures is it the height of disrespect to the animal to waste it, if you took it's life for good reason you should respect the value of the animal's life enough to use as much of it as reasonably possible. I'm pretty sure I've seen druid's wearing natural leathers and scales, so they must have a similar belief or else be complete hypocrites.

[Shiningted]

Yars, the fact that they prefer darkwood shields and hide armour to lifeless metal was debated here recently. Funnily enough, we never did work that one out :blink:

[krunch]

So, you don't think a druid would want a big nice looking bearskin rug on the floor in front of his or her fireplace or a nice cool looking weaselskin pouch for his or her after-dinner tobacco pipe?..just kidding *grin*

[EDIT] Druids should be able to kill animals and cut down trees for the dead animals and chopped down trees to provide material needs, including eating meats as food. I don't see druids as vegetarians - not a class requirement or restriction for druids, although occasionally, druids and possibly druidic sects may voluntarily choose to be vegetarians.
*** [DISCLAIMER] Before someone rants, I agree with the concept that druids would definitely be interested in and would want to protect against any
(1) mass slaughter of natural wild animals in a wilderness area
and also protect against any
(2) mass annihilation of the natural habitat of naturally occuring wild animals,
by or according to the degree and severity of others' actions with respect to the nature of an environment.

[moralgay]

LOL. Indeed :)
I mean cause, nature isn't restricted to animals, plants are nature too so eating them would be no different in that sense. Druids understand and in harmony with nature USE nature including animals, plants, bacteria, viruses, parasites, fungi, molds, natural toxins, venom and the elements. If they couldn't do even natural use/limited harm of anything natural they could not just eat meat, they couldn't eat plants, move or breathe for killing millions of bacteria :D
Something to remember. They hear plants scream.... *munch, crunch*

[Shiningted]

*munch krunch*
No comment :tired:

[moralgay]

*munch krunch*No comment :tired:
ROLF!!!!! :mrhappy:

You're so bad! :) (for those who didn't get the second joke by his slight change to the quote)

Munch: 1. To chew something audibly or with a steady working of the jaws.
2. To eat with pleasure.

Krunch: A cool fella on these forums :P

Kudos to your deviant sense of humor ShiningTed! :D

[sirchet]

I thought Druids were all about the balance of nature, and all things. Eating animals is OK, just don't eat enough of them to screw up the natural order.
On another note, I think Dwarvin Paladins should drink Draven Ale, I sure Moradin dose.

[Cerulean the Blue]

Krunch: A cool fella on these forums :PHuh? Is there more than one here?

[Lord_Spike]

Man, you ain't :poop: !!!


But, as far as the rest of this thread goes...Let's settle down, now, people!!!

:crazy:

[Sokaijin]

Now the experts know why dwarfs rarely become paladins, and why they never could when TSR was around and in charge. Well this specific situation was not , I think, on their minds, but the general attitude of the dwarven race. They may have tendency towards law, but only in their sense of honor and justice. Them dwarves love to party when the work day is done.
That's it, paladins can't drink when they're "on-the-job". That sounds pretty good to me. Kick it around awhile, talk amongst yourselves.

[krunch]

This is what this thread was about. Paladins can drink [but only in discrete moderation] where drinking means having just a refreshment or having some wine with dinner. They will not sit around and drink for the sole purpose of getting a buzz, not the sole purpose of getting drunk, or not the sole purpose of partying. That is not what Paladins are about. The worst thing to happen for a Paladin would be for a Paladin to be drinking and blow off fulfilling the requirements of the code of conduct while buzzed or drunk; plus, Paladins are not drunkards by choice and would prefer not to associate with drunkards as the reputation of the drunkards could tarnish others' perception of them and what they as Paladins stand for and support.

The ultimate question for this thread could be, "As Dwarves are reputed as heavy drinkers, maybe Dwarf Paladins are rare because Dwarf Paladins would be required to drink responsibly or maybe not even drink at all of which would be the same thing with respect to Dwarf Clerics?". Note that in AD&D, only NPC characters can be Dwarf Clerics; there were no PC characters who were allowed to be Dwarf Clerics [if a DM followed the guideline in the books].

[Kalshane]

Note that in AD&D, only NPC characters can be Dwarf Clerics; there were no PC characters who were allowed to be Dwarf Clerics [if a DM followed the guideline in the books].

You're thinking of classic D&D, where the races were also their own class. AD&D 1st ed broke away from this and allowed different races to become different classes, as well as adding new races (gnome, half-orc) and new classes (ranger, paladin, illusionist, monk, druid, bard [as a sort of prestige class] and eventually cavaliers, barbarians, acrobats and assassins.])

[Sokaijin]

This is what this thread was about. Paladins can drink [but only in discrete moderation] where drinking means having just a refreshment or having some wine with dinner. They will not sit around and drink for the sole purpose of getting a buzz, not the sole purpose of getting drunk, or not the sole purpose of partying. That is not what Paladins are about. The worst thing to happen for a Paladin would be for a Paladin to be drinking and blow off fulfilling the requirements of the code of conduct while buzzed or drunk; plus, Paladins are not drunkards by choice and would prefer not to associate with drunkards as the reputation of the drunkards could tarnish others' perception of them and what they as Paladins stand for and support.
The opening question was whether there was any previously published information on this topic. This I cannot answer with any certainty, but as only opinions on paladins in general has been offered, I would still go with my original assertion that they can't drink "on-the-job". Since in ToEE if your playing, your party is "working"(i.e. they never sit down to a meal, or take breaks) I assume that they are considered to be eating etc. only when "resting". The drinking contest is an in-game situation and the paladin would consider himself to be "on-the-job".

The ultimate question for this thread could be, "As Dwarves are reputed as heavy drinkers, maybe Dwarf Paladins are rare because Dwarf Paladins would be required to drink responsibly or maybe not even drink at all of which would be the same thing with respect to Dwarf Clerics?"
Since dwarf paladins and clerics would probably almost exclusivly follow Moridin, and Moridin espouses the dwarven virtues, they would probably be most certainly allowed (if not required) to drink. This would seem to be contrary to my previous argument, except that dwarves would not drink when working (I think), unless it was part of some ceremony.

[Noran the Axe]

It still seems to me that everyone that is against the dwarven paladin drinking thing is applying Christian belief system values to the issue. You have to think out of the box and try to look at it from the perception of a dwarf. Paladin or not, dwarves are a proud people with a love of the ale and a high tolerance to boot. I would think that a society that espouses heavy drinking as the dwarves do (even dwaven children drink - much like Europena children are permitted wine and beer) wouldn't bat an eyelash over a drinking contest - paladin or not. The virtues of the paladin would be aligned specifically to the culture and diety the character comes from - not from the humanistic point of view (which seems to be the focus here). The only "code" that we can be sure of is the Lawful Good alignment code and nothing in that code as written by WotC's d20 standards says anything that would be contrary to being involved in a drinking contest.

[krunch]

You're thinking of classic D&D, where the races were also their own class. AD&D 1st ed broke away from this and allowed different races to become different classes, as well as adding new races (gnome, half-orc) and new classes (ranger, paladin, illusionist, monk, druid, bard [as a sort of prestige class] and eventually cavaliers, barbarians, acrobats and assassins.])


[EDIT] I have only played AD&D starting with the 1st Edition and moving on to the 2nd Edition. AD&D 2nd Edition expanded Dwarves to allow them to be fighters, thieves, and clerics. *grumble* I cannot find my AD&D 1st Edition Players Handbook. It's in that book in a table.

[krunch]

@Noran the Axe: There is a joke in Germany [or, at least, there used to be] that if a boy is old enough to reach the counter top of a bar at a pub when standing on the floor [in Germany], the boy is allowed to drink beer. However, during the couple of years that I lived in Germany, I never even once saw or heard of children [up to teenagers under 17 years of age] drinking any beer or wine or being offered beer or wine by adults in peoples home or at pubs. Everyone who drank was always 17 years old or older.

IMO - What I am referring to as far as drinking goes--it's not applying the Christian belief system to it--it's how people behave, act, and conduct themselves in public when intoxicated.
* Dwarves could possibly be the exception with respect to drinking as there is nothing in the rulebooks--yet no written rules on paper does not neccessarily make some kinds or types of unlawfulness to be lawful and good, maybe so or maybe not so with respect to Dwarves.
Otherwise, Paladins are religious pious zealot holy fighters [lawful good] who would not want their reputation to be soiled or tarnished or let others have a bad image or misperception of what a Paladin stands for and upholds. At least, the developers who coded the game decided to make it that way.

[moralgay]

Noran, You are right that cultural influences would affect how a character thinks and behaves and the flavor of a class, but that does not change how a character class works. Say a Cleric gets power from his diety then no matter the culture that is the case and he/she has to obey that deity's rules or fall out of favor and lose those powers. If a Wizard/Sorceror gets powers from magic then that is where they get it from no matter the culture and if they do not follow the techniques for doing so they can't. Similarly, REGARDLESS of a Paladin's culture, he/she has to obey the code of conduct unique to Paladins that allows them to maintain holiness and perform miracles. That special power that is similar but very different from Clerics, they do not even have to follow a diety from what I understand, their physical and spiritual "state" must be holy, and regardless of culture that cannot change and the things causing his/her holiness cannot be set aside as THAT is the source of his/her power. This is why a Paladin can be turned by an evil cleric, because he is actually Holy in physical and spiritual state, but not a Cleric who may not actually be holy in physical state, just in spirit and thus not have his very body destroyed.

[Sokaijin]

It still seems to me that everyone that is against the dwarven paladin drinking thing is applying Christian belief system values to the issue. You have to think out of the box and try to look at it from the perception of a dwarf. Paladin or not, dwarves are a proud people with a love of the ale and a high tolerance to boot. I would think that a society that espouses heavy drinking as the dwarves do (even dwaven children drink - much like Europena children are permitted wine and beer) wouldn't bat an eyelash over a drinking contest - paladin or not. The virtues of the paladin would be aligned specifically to the culture and diety the character comes from - not from the humanistic point of view (which seems to be the focus here). The only "code" that we can be sure of is the Lawful Good alignment code and nothing in that code as written by WotC's d20 standards says anything that would be contrary to being involved in a drinking contest.
Exactly , this the very reasoning behind my belief that dwarf paladins and clerics might even be "required" to drink, since it is so close to the dwarven heart. But, I don't think that dwarves would drink at work ( lunch break is not work, btw). As further proof, consider the dwarf's racial bonus to toxins, which is most likely from their long history as lovers of drink :doublethu . I disagree, however, that the only "code" to be sure of (on the part of pal.'s) is the LG one. PHB v. 3.5; pg.44; second column; eighth para.: "Code of conduct"; states: A paladin must be LG... Additionally a paladin's code requires... Indicating that a paladin is held to an even higher standard than other LG characters. Part of this code states " not using toxins" (admittedly this prohibition is combat-related, but a stringent DM could, well...), and that a pal. may not continue to associate with somene who consistently offends her moral code. By this standard, one drinking contest would not require a pal. to leave the party. But, it might prevent the pal. from participating in one ( a drinking contest and an ale with supper are quite different). In PHB 3.5; pg. 43; first column, para. 4 "Races"; third sentence; "Dwarves are sometimes paladins, but becoming a paladin may be hard on a dwarf because it means putting the duties of a paladin's life before the duties to family, clan, and king." It is truly a confusing issue, with no easy, single solution. It would seem we are stuck with the determinations of the DM, or author of the module in question.

[Lord_Spike]

It is truly a confusing issue, with no easy, single solution. It would seem we are stuck with the determinations of the DM, or author of the module in question.

Now that's the smartest thing anyone's said yet about this. You've helped me make many of the points I raised earlier. I'm glad you finished this way, 'cause that "they drink & it helps make them immune to toxins" crap is the exact opposite. Idiotic. Anyone who knows anything about dwarves knows the real reason for it, and it has nothing to do with their level of alcohol consumption. The reverse is more likely the case; resistance to toxins gives them a higher tolerance for drink.

BTW...this thread has surpassed the moronic, and I am forthwith dis-associating myself from it in the interest of moving on to something more interesting than whether or not "Sir Codpiece the Dwarf" is able to have a beer without offending the gods...:jerkin: It was pretty friggin' stupid from jump street, but I guess I just can't resist wallowing in the muck sometimes.

Get a life!

[Sokaijin]

Idiotic. Anyone who knows anything about dwarves knows the real reason for it, and it has nothing to do with their level of alcohol consumption. The reverse is more likely the case; resistance to toxins gives them a higher tolerance for drink.
you are right, I didn't mean to say it was the only reason for their resistance, only that it may be a contrbuting, I apologise for stating my point so badly.

BTW...this thread has surpassed the moronic, and I am forthwith dis-associating myself from it in the interest of moving on to something more interesting than whether or not "Sir Codpiece the Dwarf" is able to have a beer without offending the gods...:jerkin: It was pretty friggin' stupid from jump street, but I guess I just can't resist wallowing in the muck sometimes.
Pity you feel this way. It is true that this is not the most critical of topics, but all questions deserve answers, and all answers deserve explanations. besides, it is a nice diversion from...

Get a life!
This type of judgmental :poop:

[Shiningted]

Hmmm, a thread thats hit rock bottom: time for Ted to shine! :jerkin:

The ethical problem with drunkenness is about just that, ethics, not morals. From the Christian perspective, or specifically the Biblical view, drinking in moderation is encouraged for its obvious health benefits: drinking to excess is condemned as sinful. Why? Not for some puritanical or abstract reason, but for a straight-forward ethical consideration that every paladin wuold understand entirely seperate from Christian considerations: being drunk inhibits free will and prevents a person distinguishing right from wrong. Simple.

As Sokaijin quoted, a paladin puts their code before other considerations. Thus Dwarven paladins would NOT get drunk, despite the cultural pressures to do so: it would be something they sacrificed to pursue their calling, just as American friars or Chinese buddhist monks sacrifice the pursuit of wealth, despite both coming from traditionally mercantile cultures.

[Noran the Axe]

I guess that we'll just have to agree to disagree. The diety that gives the paladin's powers is the one that determines if he could or could not perform a specific action and determine if it is holy or unholy. A dwarven diety being in question here for paladins and clerics of the dwarven race would have the culture of the dwarven race as a guideline - just like a paladin of a human faith with human morals and codes of condut (such as Christianity) would have human morals and codes of conduct. It IS a cultural thing. The gods are based upon the culture that they are associated with. Not all cultures and religions in real life find everything the same nor deem heavy drinking as a problem. The idea of intoxication prohibited free will is also something that I call into question. If anything, alcohol lower inhibitions and "enhances" free will. Maybe that would be a reason to call it into question - too much intoxication = a chaoitc act (?). Still, it should be weighed in as a cultural thing and the gods associated with the culture in question.

Just because a dwarven diety would have paladins and LG clerics, doesn't mean that their point of view on codes of conduct are the same as other diety codes of conduct (such as humans).

Again.... we'll just have to agree to disagree on this since I haven't seen any point of view to the contrary that actually makes logical sense without bringing human values and morals into play.

[rufnredde]

Read the rulebooks the powers for paladins are not granted by a diety. Read the posts they have made the rules clear. Look if you don't like the Paladin Character stick to fighters. Then you won't need to invent house rules to support your viewpoints.

Edit- I apologize for the flaming rant, but refuse to retract it. This started in another thread moved over here when it went dead over there and I'm not sure it doesn't belong over in general discussion. Everyone has a right to their own opinions and I do not begrudge anyone that right. I JUST CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE, give it a rest, everyone please, this thread has gone as far as taking Druids, shamans from a violent and barbaric culture and made them modern day environmentalists, and vegetarians, so I beseech you if you must continue with this please move it over to general discussion, where I can just mark my comments as a rant and not worry about it. :tetter:

[Sokaijin]

I've decided that it doesn't matter. I mean, if a skeleton ( which is supposed to be mindless with a wisdom of 10) can be a priest who casts third level divine spells, then a paladin can go as far as slaughtering expectant mothers and devuoring their unborn children. I would understand a "lich" doing what this, so-called skeleton preist, accomplished ( the lich could do far worse, in fact). So, drink up paladins, get blitzed, who cares.
Every time I play through this part, I get very dark about it. Apologies if anyone is offended.

[Shiningted]

He brought up the Skeletal Priest.

I'm offended.

[Sokaijin]

He brought up the Skeletal Priest.

I'm offended.

As am I. Damn, I was slightly disturbed yesterday :yikes:. Apologies, again, for the public rant. It will prob'ly happen again

[Agetian]

I moved the thread to General Discussion because it has more general content than the ToEE gameplay content.

- Agetian

[Cujo]

and now Lord Spike can lock it to end this huge argument :jerkin:

cos everyone knows the DM always wins (your party Lvl 8 blunders into a lich riding an a chariot towed by 8 adult black dragons and his legion of hillgiants, ettins and a black pudding) and as trokia is the DM for this game I guess what they say goes so get the fuck over it.

btw the skeletal priest is a lot like 2 creatures from Libris Mortis - the book of the undead. Pg 94 is the deathlock an undead spellcaster challenge rating of 3, Pg 114 is the Necropolitan also can be an undead spellcaster, the sample in the book is a wizard (chalenge rating 5) but from what I could tell it could've been any class.