Analysis&Suggestions about Single class over 10 level

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by Corethian, Oct 4, 2010.


  1. Corethian

    Corethian Member

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    I think, there are critical unbalances of 'over 10 level single class playing' between classes.
    Basically every class gains BAB, Saves, so these are not mentioned.
    Please check this, and tell me what you think.^^


    1. Perfect!
    Paladin : High level Paladin also has great efficiency. More smite evel per day, more remove disease per week, more hit point when using lay on hands, more spells per day. There are all of his ability when he reaches 20th level.

    Rogue : Sneak attack is the most powerful class feature in the game. 19th level, it deals +10d6 damage. 4 special abilities also avaible.(but I think there are some bugs...) Everything in SRD Rogue table is realized in this game.


    2. no problem or not critical
    Fighter : Fighter takes total 11 class bonus feat. Some high level feats such as greater weapon specializaion, greater weapon fightning are missed, but not a critical. comparing with barbarian, Fighter is much better choice.

    Cleric, Sorcerer, Wizard : Weakness of these classes is just high level spells. They are fewer than original D&D 3.5. But If they have metamagic feat, they can use high level slots very usefully. Cleric can get high level turning check, Wizard gets bonus feats and spells, Sorcerer more variety of spells. And they also get bonus spells per day even highest level. They are still powerful when choose single classing.

    Ranger : Only problem of this class is Combat style mastery. In toee, there are no greater two-weapon fighting and improved precise shot feat. But he can get two more favored enemy and spells. High level ranger is still powerful.(except feats). He also gets more spells per day.


    3. something missing, average to use
    Druid : Druid's weakness is variety of 'Wild shape' forms. Increases wild shape per day, but after 10th level, no more high level forms. That's the problem. But they still get spells per day bonus. If he is spellcaster, not a melee fighter, That maybe a not critical problem. Wild shape

    Bard : Bard's 'Inspire Courage' improves every 6 level.(+4 bonus at 20th level) But no 'Song of Freedom', 'Inspire Heroics', no benefits of high level 'Inspire Greatness'. But he get more spells known and more spells per day. Bardic ability of 10th level Bard and 20th level bard are just same. But I think his physical strength is not bad. So I think this class is average.

    Monk : Monk's class features are various. After 10th level, he can get 'Greater flurry', 'Diamond Body', abundant step, diamond soul, quivering palm, ki strike(adamantine), empty body, perfect self. But the only thing that applied in game is just 'Diamond Soul'(spell resistence). But he can get other benefits of high level, such as unarmed damage(1d6~2d10), AC bonus(~+4), unarmored speed bonus(~+60ft.)
    I think he loses much, but still gets benefits. So he is average class, better than this victim...


    4. critical to use, must choose multi class
    Barbarian : Yes! This is what I want to tell. Barbarian. Barbarian can get more rage per day. That's all.
    Imagine difference between barbarian and fighter! Barbarian has his own charaterisic. His battle is powerful and invulverable. He fights like burning fire. No heavy armor, No shield. Only his body and great axe! Slaughter or Death!
    But in ToEE, it's impossible, Barbarian is weak. even he is 20th level. His rage is same with 1th level's rage. Just he becomes frequently angry. He still tired after rage. And still hurts. Because he do not have 'Greater, Mighty Rage', 'Tireless Rage', and 'Damage Reduction'.

    I think the worst class is Barbarian. Charisma of barbarian's battle is gone. Barbarian class is just bridge of multiclass.

    So I say, "Dear honorable modders, please save these classes, Barbarian, Bard, Druid and monk!(especially Barbarian!!)" And tell me about this topic. I want to listen your opinions.


    I want to ask modders respectfully, if my english is poor or impolite, please forgive me.
    "Is there any other way to realize these in Modpack? Missed high level feats(Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved precise shot), missed class features of Barbarian, Bard, Monk, Druid."

    Thank you for read this.^^ Later I will study Modding, and help you if I can.(Sorry, but I'm half- computer illiterate even can't speak english well)
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2010
  2. Necroticpus

    Necroticpus Cthulhu Ftaghn!

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    I agree that all the hybrid classes are weak, just shadows of the straight classes. They're used for role-playing immersion.
     
  3. Ausdoerrt

    Ausdoerrt Veteran Member

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    Don't forget better crafting options for these guys (also for druid). Also, spells are fewer but more awesome: either lots of damage, or high-level monster summons which are great.. Sor doesn't need metamagic to cast lower-level spells as higher-level.
     
  4. General Ghoul

    General Ghoul Established Member

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    I like high loevel Druids just for the summoning options, Ginormus Elder Earth Elemental FTW!
     
  5. Ausdoerrt

    Ausdoerrt Veteran Member

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    Yeah, those things are ridiculous.

    I think that Clerics are pretty much the only ones who got shafted regarding high-level spells. I mean, they pretty much get lazy lvl2 buffs and that's it.
     
  6. Oakheart

    Oakheart Member

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    In a related suggestion, I think I would like to see an option in the front end for reducing, even halving experience awards for the game, so that advancement is slowed and you are forced to play the middle levels through the majority of all the content, both vanilla and NC. I have not found anything in 5.9 that I can't beat with a well balanced party of ~8th level (with crafting, more like 10th level without crafting). The slavers are nasty for sure, but even they fall like leaves to a hasted party with enlarged cleaving improved tripping melee fighters an improved invisible rogue and some crowd control/AoE damage magic backup. Even if you go through the dialogue and bad things happen... still a winnable fight before 10th level. I submit that slower advancement is a 'more fun' solution then the arbitrary level cap.

    PS: the statement 'anything in the game' does NOT include the use of Fragrach or Scather, which are absurdly OP and never used by me, nor am I including Iuz or Cuthbert, whom I have never actually tried to fight.

    PPS: Yes, I have incurred the 20% exp penalty for unbalanced multi-classing on purpose, all the time as a way of slowing advancement (just pointing this out because someone always points out the obvious, so I thought I would save them the effort).
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2010
  7. cezmail

    cezmail Gorboth's Rider

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    Hmm have you thought about multi-classing for the penalty to help to stretch out things Oakheart?

    :D just joking! hehe

    On a serious note, someone I believe back in 5.7 or 5.8, when the Co8 changed the xp factor to 60% or so, posted a console command or hotfix so you could change the level of xp awarded. If that is still applicable to 5.92, you could use that, for yourself, to stretch things out and make it more challenging.
     
  8. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    Corethian - check THIS thread on feats. I have tried to add all the ones you mentioned and nothing above level 10 works, nor can they easily be worked around. Darkstorm may have them in his new engine but for now we are stuck with things.

    If its any conslation, there are many small efforts in KotB to improve the classes. Druids and Rangers can control their animals better, plot-critical tracking and Knowledge (Nature), bards get Bardic knowledge checks, the chance to perform in dlg and alchemy (Gnomes favourite class, remember!) and various other things I won't boast about here. Small additions but making some classes richer.

    Getting back to your list, are you aware of the Monk's Belt? It adds 'Abundant Step'.
     
  9. Corethian

    Corethian Member

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    I appreciated all your reply, thank you.

    - Necroticpus
    I prefer the straight classes. But in ToEE, There are something missing. But there are no such powerful enemy, it's true, and sad.

    - Ausdoerrt, General Ghoul
    Crafting, summoning. Yes, it's very power. Thank you, two.

    - Oakheart
    I agree with you. You're right. In fact, ToEE is short game except mod. At first, I imagined that ToEE was Baldur's gate style game. After searching web, I disappointed, but this game was still cool. I choose this game for closing of my game life. Baldur's gate was so complex to install with mods, and damn 'long'. This thread is some of complaint about game production and my life.

    - Shiningted
    Thank you for your help. I checked and very helpful. And I don't know about 'Monk's belt', I missed because no monk in my party. I'll play KotB soon. Thank you very much.


    Fortunately, there is no time-limit with this game, 'ToEE'(but must be last one.), so I want to enjoy everything in ToEE and wonderful modds. So I think, and talk to you like this. Thank you for your help.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2010
  10. sirchet

    sirchet Force for Goodness Moderator Supporter

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    Why? Are you giving up gaming all together?

    I don't mean to pry, it's just that you seem very excited about the game and I just hate to see folks leave the gaming community. :Being_a_s
     
  11. hellblazer

    hellblazer Established Member

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    Has anything other than spells been added to the classes in the past two years?
     
  12. gazra_1971

    gazra_1971 Knights of Legend

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    class abilites above level 10

    I've been testing a level 20 barbarian and a level 20 ranger, and here are 2 bugs that I've noticed:

    A level 20 barbarian is supposed to have Damage Reduction 5/-, but in this computer game, a level 20 barbarian only has Damage Reduction 2/- (i.e. a level 20 barbarian is only getting the benefit as if the barbarian was level 10).

    A level 20 ranger is supposed to have 5 favoured enemies, and this computer game only works correctly if the player selects a new/different race for their favoured enemy at both level 15 and level 20. At level 15 OR level 20, if the player selects a race for their favoured enemy that they have already chosen at either level 1, 5, or 10, then the ranger receives a damage bonus against that race that is 2 more than they are supposed to have, and if the player selects the same race at both level 15 AND level 20, then the ranger receives a damage bonus against that race that is 4 more than they are supposed to have. A level 20 ranger is supposed to have a maximum possible damage bonus of 10 against a race, but this computer game allows a level 20 ranger to have a damage bonus of 14 against a race (see screenshots below). This bug is caused by there only being space to display 3 favoured enemies in the ranger's levelling up interface, and since the game was designed for characters to reach a maximim of level 10, being able to use the Favored Enemy selection interface at level 15 and level 20 allows the player to cheat.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jun 6, 2013
  13. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Gazra, are you using Co8 to test that? Your screens show the old UI.
     
  14. gazra_1971

    gazra_1971 Knights of Legend

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    To add to or confirm Corethian's analysis, I levelled Turuko up to a level 17 monk and he had the following monk abilites above level 10 (which worked exactly the same as RAW (rules as written)):

    Monk AC Bonus continued to work above level 10 (Turuko's natural AC bonus went up to +3 at level 15) (this allows monks to have the highest AC in the game!)

    Fast Movement continued to work above level 10 (Turuko had a speed of 80)

    Greater Flurry works as RAW (this allows the monk to make more attacks per turn than even a fighter or barbarian!)

    Diamond Soul works as RAW (Turuko had natural Spell Resistance: 27)


    Unfortunately, although Turuko's character sheet stated that he had the 'Quivering Palm' feat, he was unable to use the ability, so that ability is not implemented in this computer game.


    In conclusion, monks are awesome in the Circle of Eight Modpack New Content Edition (and fun to play)!



    Also, paladins above level 10 seem to continue to receive more Smite Evil attempts per day, their damage from Smite Evil does indeed continue to increase with their paladin level, and they receive the correct number of spells of the appropriate spell level for their paladin level.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2013

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